cost of production

[kadookid]

just curious BW6 was it the economy that brought hoot down, I spoke to R I this week and they actually only have 8 employees is what I was told. it has allways baffled me how popular 4 wheelers and side by sides are compared to an aatv that market is huge the cost of those machines new is about the same as an aatv, then they add snorkels and other hop ups to go through deep water why not just get a machine made to do that, it must be the lack of high speed or the maintanence on all the chains that turns them away.

[thebuggyman1]

Grouping all quads together, kadookid, is like grouping all amphibs together. There is a huge difference between a maxII and a turbo diesel mudd-ox.
I've seen the little 2wd quads fly across the sand dunes, and 4wd ones that can't climb the hills. On the flipside, I'd much rather push snow with a 800EFI than try with the small light 2wd race quad.
I think the biggest thing the amphib industry lacks is marketing. But TV comercials and magazine adds cost money....And I bet the profit margin just isn't there in this economy.
Not to mention having the competeing manufacturers cooperate on such a venture.

[brushcutter]

Since molding a poly body is such an expensive proposition, the "gorilla hull" might work. It's a lot less expensive to build a mold for fiberglass than to tool up for poly forming. This business is located a short drive from my home, and I know the owner. The gorilla Hull is guaranteed for the life of the "boat" and if I remember right it's made with Kevlar. Just something to think about. If you ever decide to go into production, I'll try my best to get in on it, I want to be in the R&D dept.

[Bw6]

Kadoo, thanks for asking. What brought the Hoot down, was mainly 2 things: 1: The Hoot as designed for production was not commercial. Knox hired a test driver and told him to go break it, which he promptly did. The testing revealed design weaknesses, these flaws took about 2 years to correct. This drained a lot of the available cash, to Knoxs' credit they wouldn't ship the machine until it was ready. 2. Is something that is the downfall of many companies, "It's not invented here" syndrome. Meaning that ideas for product improvement are ignored, only because the source was outside the company. Engineers and Designers are especially guilty of this. In the case of Hoot, design advice was largely ignored until it was too late.

I'm not surprised that RI production/employees are down, Argo goes through the same cycles, the only thing that saves Argo was their foreign distributors allowing them to sell machines abroad.

I believe to be successful in the AATV recreational market, you need a machine that will attract the ATV/UTV guys. Argo calls their 8x8 line a UTV (Side-by-Side), but just because they put in a couple of suspension seats and some bling, doesn't make it an UTV. The ATV guys want, style, no maintenance, and speed. It doesn't mean much that no ATV can follow an AATV, that's why they have a winch.

So a successful AATV that's going to win over some of the ATV market needs the above, plus a suspension, and decent water speed. Price is secondary, if it does those things people will buy it. Our traditional (Argo) market is just too small.

The Hoot was close to being a winner. It had sport's car handling, light, straddle the suspension seat, true 6 wheel drive, and handlebar steering. It had some weaknesses that could be addressed, maybe the new guys will continue the evolution.

[Beeman]

Definitely agree with Bw. It has to be able to grab a portion the ATV/UTV market.

[thebuggyman1]

I agree with the "price doesn't matter"
What matters is convincing banks to finance.

[azz7772]

[QUOTE=Bw6;114953] hired a test driver and told him to go break it, which he promptly did. The testing revealed design weaknesses, these flaws took about 2 years to correct.]

that would be a great job

[Beeman]

"I think the biggest thing the amphib industry lacks is marketing. But TV comercials and magazine adds cost money....And I bet the profit margin just isn't there in this economy."

I don't fully agree with this. The AATV's are well known, and have even taken on the brand "Argo" as the all encompassing label for these types of vehicle, like you would see brand names as "Kleenex" and "Rollerblades" classifying those particular products. I don't believe that a 6x6 or an 8x8 is unknown to anybody looking for a recreational toy or for a workhorse application.

I do think that AATV's as they are currently built and "marketed", suffer from being pinned into very unique situations where they would become the #1 choice for users. Versatile? yes - Applicable? seldom. It's the jack of all trades/master of none scenario. I think a new breed of design would be to make the vehicle capable of a quad or side-by-side in speed and suspension, while maintaining an amphibious nature beyond a snorkel. If it's purely for fun, than make it a unit where you "are" the machine (like a bike or a quad).. if you are merely a driver, you'll lose the thrill crowd. (I think this design should have a single user (in the center), have little carrying capacity and probably open without a roll cage. It should have reasonable speed in the water). If it is for a workhorse, than the design should focus around carrying capacity, high torque on land and high trust in the water. I'd put in seating for two people.

[Ken Hiltz]

This may be a 6x6/8x8 amphib forum so one would expect a "new" 6-8 wheel amphib to start there. You've already stated the obvious to me. To sell into the fast paced 2x4/4x4 market you need speed, suspension, . . . Put a tub on the 4 wheelers design.

[Bw6]

Where To Ride: If you own an AATV your world is full of restrictions, forget about most State Parks, Public Roads etc. your world becomes Private Property and Off Road Parks. There is no lobby for AATV's. On the other hand if you own an ATV your world is vast, ride on public roads, invited into communities, clubs, low cost insurance, trail systems etc. Why, there is a BIG LOBBY for ATV's. In most areas an AATV can't even be driven on the side of a road, it must be trailered.

So from many viewpoints a new AATV design is needed. Especially in the recreational segment. So how do you start? Well forget the banks, their into low risk and high collateral, and venture capitalists aren't very venturesome. So you need to start small and get a small group of like minded investors. Say 10 guys kick in $5,000 (change to suit), with $50,000 working capital you can build a proto-type, then market it using social networking, and at large venues, Mud Nationals etc. Then take deposits for orders. This method is similar to Kit Aircraft industry, build a flying proto-type, go to EAA, and Sun/Fun, get a booth and take deposits.