New Adair 18.5 inch belted snow and ice tracks

[foxvalley]

looked like fun. I'm guessing about a foot of firm, spring snow. You probably had enough width and floatation for deeper snow had you needed it though, I think. Did you have any problems with your u-channel shaped ice-cleats packing with snow?

I'd love to see more videos, they never get old. I look forward to seeing one where you are dead-floating in clean water. Your nose started out awfully high touching bottom at the beginning of the short reverse. The track seemed to have a decent grip up the "ramping" of the break-off. Nice job though.

Yes,Buzz,there was about a foot or so of wet snow,but it wouldn't matter if there was 5 feet,as the unit stayed on top,even in the turns,which is a combination of the admiral tranny working in conjunction with the track setup,one huge advantage with the newer tranny.
Yes, the cleats did fill up with wet snow,a huge advantage,that you might not have realized,is now with the wet snow packed in the cleats, we have snow on snow contact,which is almost like glue. Also, the snow is not packed in so tight as to hinder the cleats when negotiating fallen logs or other obstacles.
As far as the walk out on the ice,the front of the unit was touching bottom when I started backing up,but it was not touching at all as the unit walked up the ice.
One thing that I found out in these experiments, is that weight transfer to the back of the argo as you start to walk out on the ice is not as important as I thought,as I had a friend help with this yesterday. The most important aspect that I have found in getting it up on ice,besides these tracks, is getting enough momemtum to get you up.
I am looking forward to seeing a similar experiment on video with your track system to see how they compare,as there should be plenty of ice up by you.

[Obsessed]

:

Yes, the cleats did fill up with wet snow,a huge advantage

Doug...I noticed the same thing with the warm and sticky snow packing the cleats...I've got an idea for a slight improvement that should help eliminate most of this....nice thing about this unique design is that while all full block or metal style tracks will freeze and pack snow on the (sometimes to the point that the tracks won't roll anymore) the narrow Adair snow track only appears to be able to hold a little of the snow outside of the fenders where it can't restrict operation of the vehicle...I'm starting to rethink my new hybrid classic track design with the replaceable embedded metal cleat across the entire grouser...not sure that would make for a good winter track

Tim

[foxvalley]

:

Doug...I noticed the same thing with the warm and sticky snow packing the cleats...I've got an idea for a slight improvement that should help eliminate most of this....nice thing about this unique design is that while all full block or metal style tracks will freeze and pack snow on the (sometimes to the point that the tracks won't roll anymore) the narrow Adair snow track only appears to be able to hold a little of the snow outside of the fenders where it can't restrict operation of the vehicle...I'm starting to rethink my new hybrid classic track design with the replaceable embedded metal cleat across the entire grouser...not sure that would make for a good winter track

Tim

Hey Tim, I really think the snow packing in the cleats is a non issue,even if it freezes hard,as the hard ice will break when it comes in contact with another hard surface,or the ice will fall out all by itself. If a guy was really concerned about this,you could "open the cleat" instead of a U shape in a 90 degrees,you could go,say120 degrees and the snow/ice will just fall out.Still,I think this is a non issue,and like the wet snow in for more traction.

[foxvalley]

Ok,here we go,this is one of my favorite videos,it really shows off the "aggressivness" of the belted cleat kit, along with the short cleat kit on the adair belted tracks.Being down in IA,helping put these tracks together,I had the opportunity to add both cleat kits,as my little experiment,and am pleasantly suprised at the results.
As you will see in the video,the cleats are full of wet snow,and it is raining,and the logs are wet,do you really think any of this matters with this setup?
Also, I thought these cleats would tear up the grass/weeds and get all caught up in the teeth,not so at all!!
This cleat kit(ice cleats)or winter kit, in my opinion,has much more use than in just winter,ie,how many times do you get stuck on a submerged log in the muddy trail because your tracks can't bite into it.
The first time I climb the logs it is in high gear,the second time I shift into low,both gears worked awesome,a true testiment to the admiral high torque tranny,and the track system. adair belted tracks with cleats walking on log pile - YouTube

[Buzz]

I know it seems like snow/ice will just fall back out. But I'll be 100% honest with you...the majority of the time it won't. Frequently, especially if you're going in and out of water and back up on the snow, it will freeze "hard" inside of any "pocket" or void space. Closed depressions (supertrack is a classic example) pack with snow. Especially with different temperatures, snow conditons, water crossings, etc. Snow on snow contact for track is almost always a very very bad thing. Your track becomes not-so-good anymore not to mention a lot heavier. I think this is a big risk for any kind of u-channel (or other cleat or main track "piece" or "segment"). They will pack with snow, and they absolutely can become non-functional....in other words useless. You can also damage your tub for the giant ice clumps coming back up and around the track. I've seen it happen. This isn't an issue with the escargo cleat for what that's worth. The snow/ice simply does not pack the depressions so that the cleat no longer works. The single on-edge cleat remains functional and has tremendous bite. Trust me, a guy could certainly fabricate himself some similar steel cleats, but for me it's just not worth the labor. I'm happy to pay for a steel cleat (even if only for 33 to 50%) of of a track, so that I know it's strong, each piece is identical, and they work. If it doesn't work well, there's no point in using it at all....it doesn't matter if its fairly strong, looks good, and and costs less. I am more guilty than anyone of paying more the 4th or 5th time around when it would have been easier to just spend a bit more in the first place. The newer 25" cleat is crazy aggressive/strong. Even the older 10" wide crosser for 22/24" tires has the benefits I'm talking about. Any machine with small tires and less clearance is at a disadvantage when up against a bigger machine that is set-up the same way with the same tracks. That being said, me and a couple buddies (conquest owners) will be putting together hybrid escargos (possibly up to 50% steel in various plastic/steel crosser patters) to see how to make it work even better. We'll figure out the best compromise of weight and traction. Escargo all-steel tracks are now lighter as well. A hybrid though....even a ful 50%....still weighs "half" while in the water. If you make your track "too" light (as in all-plastic) I have noticed that you need to run a shorter (less aggressive grouser) and are more limited in adjusting tire diameter/track pressure/tension because the grousers above the tire become very "hoppy" and want to bounce up, slapping the tub. It's more evident with a very aggressive cleat like the one on my hybrid track because the ride on hard pack is slightly more "bumpy" and there is a bit less clearance between the grouser/tub area. Put some steel on it and the "hoppy" or "bowstring" effect of the crossers on top of the tires goes away. Adding "some" steel cleats removes this "all-UHMW" bowstring effect....at least in my case. Now I could have just made a shorter, less aggressive grouser, but what I'm after is performance. Firm tires and agressive cleats work. Add some steel cleats and the track isn't as prone to "bouncing" all over the place. A 33% steel hybrid probably only adds 25 lbs of actual "payload" working against machine floatation while in the water. The majority of the track is made of components "less" dense than water. But man, you gotta have a realiable cleat that provides traction and does not "pack" with snow/ice.

[Buzz]

Ok,here we go,this is one of my favorite videos,it really shows off the "aggressivness" of the belted cleat kit, along with the short cleat kit on the adair belted tracks.Being down in IA,helping put these tracks together,I had the opportunity to add both cleat kits,as my little experiment,and am pleasantly suprised at the results.
As you will see in the video,the cleats are full of wet snow,and it is raining,and the logs are wet,do you really think any of this matters with this setup?
Also, I thought these cleats would tear up the grass/weeds and get all caught up in the teeth,not so at all!!
This cleat kit(ice cleats)or winter kit, in my opinion,has much more use than in just winter,ie,how many times do you get stuck on a submerged log in the muddy trail because your tracks can't bite into it.
The first time I climb the logs it is in high gear,the second time I shift into low,both gears worked awesome,a true testiment to the admiral high torque tranny,and the track system. adair belted tracks with cleats walking on log pile - YouTube

fox-valley- I'm not trying to sling mud, but a lot pile like that can be driven up on just tires. Many guys already know this, but for the ones that don't.....FYI

[foxvalley]

Thats funny, I thought we were talking tracks,not tires.

[Obsessed]

The first time I climb the logs it is in high gear,the second time I shift into low,both gears worked awesome,a true testiment to the admiral high torque tranny,and the track system. adair belted tracks with cleats walking on log pile - YouTube

Cool video Doug...hard on the high dollar logs, but very cool video!...for what it worth t have never seen a factory style track or tire that would come close to climbing that tall of log, much less in the rain...pretty sure that most tracks with a little bit of steel on them would give it a pretty good go though :-)

Buzz I agree with a lot of what you are saying and you make some good points, I'm not sure I have ever personably been able to get snow and ice to stick to one of our plastic track segments while going in and out of ice, mud, water and snow...I do agree that molded plastic tracks with open cavities seem to be really good at picking up another hundred pounds or so of snow, ice, and debris, but in general they are still a lot easier on a machine than heavier rubber or steel tracks, and they work really well for some types of challenges...

that said...all these track and machine options are good for some people and some applications and can be made to perform specific tests very well. I think that most people enjoy their custom built rides because hopefully they put it together for their type of challenges...occasionally we see people buy a high dollar machine with the false hope that it will excel at everything which is never the case, and if they didn't get honest and accurate information to base their personal decision on they often end up disappointed with their machine and unfortunately our unique sport :-(. I always find it interesting that a smart guy like Rock Doctor would take one good old conquest over two new HDI's (actually if he was smart he would take the HDI's and sell them and probably buy a nice second home..lol) ...and a guy like Mud Bug would prefer a smaller, and lighter 6x6 HD over a new MuddOx...Doug has found that a light weight HDI with tracks will take him anywhere and with comfort and confidence ...tattooman obviously enjoys a rambunctious and sporty go anywhere MaxII ...and max rules and I have been debating which is better max or argo for years and I don't think I've won yet :-)....different strokes for different folks....I guess that's what probably makes us unique and is probably a huge advantage for me personally, is that I have had the pleasure to drive and play with everything over the past decade and have access to every part and option currently made today...I will never say that there is just one option that is right for everyone...just last week Adair argo sales helped a friend buy a new HDI with factory rubber tracks (and no track tuners)...and yesterday I recommended Argos 13" standard track to a guy that would probably have the best luck with that setup for his application...we have the fortunate advantage to be able to test everything, build anything, and simply recommend what is going to work best for a guy and his budget ..not just promote or sell what we might build

tim

[Buzz]

Foxvalley- thank you for posting the video. I know how time consuming it is, and it helps everyone. In regards to snow, those snow conditions are not the same as those that really "require" a wide track lots of floatation. A much narrower track would have worked just as well but would not have worked so well in truly deep, soft snow. In deep/soft snow, your track would have sunk much more. With your empty machine weight, it would have worked fine though just the same.
......I'm sure someone has a video of supertracks globbed up.....and the rubber track "hinge" globbed up with a snowball hitting the tub every time it comes around. I've climbed up ice shelves and crazy steep hills with the tracks I have, so I know they work..yes there's video. My advice is that u-channel ice-cleats will always pack with snow/ice. Then they're worthless. In the summer/fall and swamp this isn't an issue.
Tim, you are right, UHMW itself doesn't really suffer from snow and ice "bonding." But depending on crosser spacing, thickness, and shape...certain snow conditions will most definitely not clean-out as well. It's the traction add-ons that are the issue. When you need them, you need them. If they're packed full, they no longer bite. I understand where you say you're coming from 100%. We are all different and have different needs...you want to help people. I get the feeling that it is true, but that it also "is" all about promoting and selling things you might build. Why else would I be able to read the marketing ads that I have. With selling products comes criticism from some...like me I guess. You can't please everyone all the time. It's nothing personal. Like you said, if your product is the best, it will speak for itself. No need to put down others. Offering up questions or concerns, sure, but breaking another down....I won't put down your track, I'll just raise questions or concerns regarding "certain" statements I've heard describing their ability "over and above" anything else out there. We don't want to let anyone down. I am a hobbyist, and I have learned a lot from reading about other's "projects." Their documentation (written and video) has helped me. The age of the internet. Sharing my findings is only going to "help" someone else down the road. If that means making rebuttals to carefully crafted statements and untrue criticism then I will. It is frustrating to read certain things because I know not everyone can see through the smoke and mirrors. Effective marketing, even if exxagerated works, so I get it. I have been lead astray by false expectations of what a track could and could not do. And now, finally, having run them all, I can honestly give someone helpful feedback, prior to them spending a bunch of money. I hope to "help" someone make the best use of their money, the 1st time around. I've come to the point I prefer to test and figure this out myself....I don't believe half of what I hear anymore. I'll always share my findings without a "spin" or creative "comparison one-upping" verbage. It does sound heartfelt, but why would you set anyone up (knowing what you know now) with rubber tracks and no tuners? If I had a pair of 13" tracks, I personally would just give them to someone. I wouldn't let them spend "any" money to purchase a garbage set of tracks like that. Yes, you sound helpful. Just being honest. If they couldn't afford to spend just a bit more, I would say tell them to just hold off and save a little longer, work more...that's what I do. For me this is just a hobby, but it can be an expensive one. If you can get it right the first time, it helps. I wasn't so lucky. I've thought many times about going full circle back to a couple old beater machines on good tracks.
I'll try to round up some folks in Alaska that have your tracks and try to get some good video. Good or bad, there's a good chance it might help you even more. Some of the posts (by customers) don't quite represent all of the factors accurately.

[foxvalley]

Here is just one more video,simular to one I posted earlier,but I think this one is needed as to show that in shallow water, when the back of the tracks can touch bottom,these tracks/cleats will walk up on the ice everytime. You will notice that the argo is actually floating as it swims up to the ice,then the cleats hook in and bring the back down hitting bottom,thus creating the needed traction to propell the unit forward,and up onto the ice.

Oops,after watch the video again,it doesn't seem that the back of the tracks are touching at all.There might be ice under the tracks gaining traction that way.I could use some input as to what you guys think.shallow water ice walk out 3 - YouTube