Springers, how, why and are they worth it?

[kghills]

Originally most 6x6s used Balloon tires. These tires were vulcanized to a small center hub and acted as sort of a suspension giving a soft bouncy ride. With a solid frame mounted axle the tire and axle to some extent work as the suspension for the vehicle. Depending on tire construction and air pressure, when you hit an object, the tire will give way a certain amount and try to absorb the energy. If the object is large enough and/or the speed traveled is high enough you can overcome the ability of the tire to fully absorb the impact and the energy is transferred through the rim to the axle which will deflect and also lever itself against the frame a bit depending on its length. Now depending on how hard the impact is and at what speed it might occur, depends on weather the axle has the ability to withstand the impact and throw the vehicle in the air or bend, break and possibly bend the frame and rim. Here is an example of even the strongest axles currently available to the 6x6 community showing the worst case scenario.

Add to this torsional load due to the fact that the axle is driving the vehicle and the fact that the axle is also supporting the weight of the vehicle and it is easy to see why even high strength alloy axles start to be required with the demise of a readily available compliant tire like the old balloon tires originally used. I think it is easy to see why the ride for the 6x6 becomes so rough and the axles can fail on the older 6x6s when agricultural, implement and mud tires are used not to mention the torsional load from the larger lugs and torquier 4 stroke engines.

Now enter the springer. Which uses an independent suspension or IS for each wheel. Now you have essentially three drive components for each wheel. A drive flange back at the frame, axle shaft and wheel hub in the hub carrier. The hub carrier usually has an upper and lower a-frame attached to it with some sort of shock and spring arrangement that is connected to the lower a-frame and frame support. This IS arrangement sort of takes the load bearing and need to absorb and impact out of the equation for most of the axle components and only require it to take the demands of torsional load. Energy not absorbed by the tire is now transferred to the spring and shock. Sounds great right. Smooth ride no matter what tire right. Well there are some other considerations to take into account especially in wet adverse conditions. And here is were I ask the question of durability of the springer. This question has nothing to do with axle strength. If an inch and a quarter stock Honda Civic axle can take 500HP at the wheel in the cars I dyno at my shop I would think an axle in a 6x6 springer should pretty well handle the 8-40HP a 6x6 can transfer to its wheel.

Its all the other components. Strength of the A-frames, shock bushings and mounts, plus the cradle or exo-frame that supports everything. How about life of things like CV joints, boots and spherical rod ends and bearings. What happens when the suspension bottoms out? In things like buggies running in the desert or on sand dunes these components deal with one set of challenges. In woods, swamps, mud holes I would think that maybe the game would change. Seaweed, roots, small twigs muck all balled up around the axles. Every part of the suspension submerged in sandy grimy clay enriched muck. Running the machine back and forth across deep ruts just to try to make it in and out of a hole like Mike in this video which is sort of typical of many of the videos posted of group rides on this site.


Call me crazy to ask, but fitted with an aggressive mud tire would a springer be more capable than a Max IV like Mike the administrators or a RZR?

How long would the bearings, rod ends, bushings and CVs actually last in adverse conditions. I know the number of springers is few, but there sure is a lot of interest and fitted with a big mud tire? Do they have more potential than for just zipping around the desert fast with a softer ride. Is the ride that much better than an old balloon tire? Who knows?

Looking forward to discussion and education. Keith.

[amphibious drew]

That bent axle wasn't one of whippers newer custom made ones. I don't see your point here but to try and cause controversy and mabe to vent your aggression about someone having something better than you have. I'm sure Whipper and Bridget would be glad to sell you a springer kit for your Attex. Then it would be the best thing since sliced bread to you I am sure. If the balloon tires worked so well, they would probably be in production still today. But the fact is, they would send you a new tire if and when you popped yours. I would imagine they only did so to keep consumers content as they did pop and puncture, and are not easily patched.

[kghills]

Drew, is that all you honestly got out of my previous post? You felt it was some sort of refrence against Whippers axles? The post I got the picture from was from Whipper himself and I used it as an example as it is widley know that his axles are of superior quality but everything has its limitations hence the reason I posted it as an example. If you follow the thread the picture most recently was posted in Whipper states the rock that bent the axle could be hit with one of his springer kits without damaging the suspension. If that is true, that is the feedback I am interested in, and maybe even video. I work on vehicles all day that are better than anything I own. But that is off topic and thank you for your response. I always figured the demise of balloon tires was a numbers game. With so few 6x6s being sold, why make a tire? Similar to what you see happen to Runamuks, Rawhides and ASX tires. I tried to read through as many of the builds as I could and watched the videos I could find. The only thing that comes close to my intended use is the Argo springer info and it seems like it has dropped off the 6x6world radar. I am sure there has to be a number of people that look at the springer concept and wonder about its ability in non desert, non racing, non sand dunes conditions. I do not know everything so I thought this thread might enlighten me and others as a more diverse view on springer amphibs. Discussions like this will help me determine if I build or purchase a kit for my Attex yes, that is why I bought the latest one and why the threads name asks if it is worth it. If I decide it is you can count on me for honest feedback. For the record I slice my own bread.

Keith.

[brushcutter]

This is slightly off topic but Keith raised a question about the springer durability. A while back I watched another documentary about the Baja 1000. I've long been a fan of desert racing and while watching some of the available video and the absolute torture the drivers and their machines endure I've often wondered what that would be like in a 6x6. In a word: BRUTAL! Outcome: no finish! Amphibs are just not suited to that kind of prolonged abuse, for the most part they are far too slow and would hammer the driver to pulp in the first 50 miles if the machine even made it that far. I can't say whether there has ever been a single one even attempt it, I know I've never seen one. I do believe that if there ever was a 6X6 that stood even the slightest chance of getting in that would be one of Whipper's Springer machines. I can't remember what they call it, but they allow folks to run whatever they bring after all competition vehicles have hit the trail.

[Don]

[kghills]

Don, thanks for the awsome refrence to 195 and I think Joe's dad. I don't really think it is off topic. It is a historical refrence to ability in the desert of a solid axle amphib. I feel like Joe's dad might call me a woosey if I turned an Attex into a springer. Do you know what tires 195 originally had. I think he made it 175 miles officially but was lost for another unofficial 50. These are exactly the sorts of things I wonder about. Don, also since you have experience with balloon tire ride. What's your opinion if you dare? Thanks again Don.

Keith.

[Mike]

Don, thanks for the awsome refrence to 196 and I think Joe's dad. I feel like Joe's dad might call me a woosey if I turned an Attex into a springer. Do you know what tires 196 originally had. I think he made it 175 miles officially but was lost for another unofficial 50. These are exactly the sorts of things I wonder about. Don, also since you have experience with balloon tire ride. What's your opinion if you dare? Thanks again Don.

Keith.

22 hours and 300 miles from the beginning of the race to the third checkpoint not including the lost miles. The full article that Don linked to is in the Attex brochures section of the site about 3/4 of the way down the page: Attex Brochures

[brushcutter]

Wow, that was a few days back... Over 300 miles and the machine was "still functioning excellently" - able to go, but it's driver wasn't, the relief driver was at the NEXT check point... well that sucks. I wonder just what mods they made for the race, also if there are any of those machines still around. However I would think that answers my question, yes a springer IS "worth it" for those who want a nice cushy ride, a machine they could drive all day and not go home feeling like they had been run over by their machine. For that kind of riding a suspension seat just won't cut it.

Think of it this way: how many quads would you see out on the trails if they didn't have " the smoothest ride available"? How many "frogs" would you see if ours did? Remember, the first quads on the market had ZERO suspension... NONE, the manufacturers listened to their customers and quickly added it, thus that market grew into the monster it is today. This site is for advancing our hobby(more like obsession) right? My thoughts are that the springer IS the next big step in frog evolution. The RI machines still have a few things that could be offered : bullet proof chain adjusters and factory split shift, Argo now has a transmission that can counter rotate, so the next logical step is >>>suspension<<<. I think the real question Keith should be asking is : If you were looking to buy new, and manufacturers offered springers, would you buy one? I would!

[rodp]

Wow, that was a few days back... Over 300 miles and the machine was "still functioning excellently" - able to go, but it's driver wasn't, the relief driver was at the NEXT check point... well that sucks. I wonder just what mods they made for the race, also if there are any of those machines still around. However I would think that answers my question, yes a springer IS "worth it" for those who want a nice cushy ride, a machine they could drive all day and not go home feeling like they had been run over by their machine. For that kind of riding a suspension seat just won't cut it.

Think of it this way: how many quads would you see out on the trails if they didn't have " the smoothest ride available"? How many "frogs" would you see if ours did? Remember, the first quads on the market had ZERO suspension... NONE, the manufacturers listened to their customers and quickly added it, thus that market grew into the monster it is today. This site is for advancing our hobby(more like obsession) right? My thoughts are that the springer IS the next big step in frog evolution. The RI machines still have a few things that could be offered : bullet proof chain adjusters and factory split shift, Argo now has a transmission that can counter rotate, so the next logical step is >>>suspension<<<. I think the real question Keith should be asking is : If you were looking to buy new, and manufacturers offered springers, would you buy one? I would!

Without a doubt you are correct, they should be offering a suspension model at least as an option now. A well built and reliable factory springer model would sell well, and not necessarily be that much more expensive. However, if anyone actually does it is another matter as it's easier to sit and do nothing if you're still making money. Once the first one goes that route though the other will have to follow.

[mudbug3]

Amphibious machines are sold to a very small market , and adding another $6,000 - $7,000 for a springer suspension to an already expensive machine would price them right out of the market for most buyers. This is why Argo only offers suspension seats.