Adair classic tracks

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Thread: Adair classic tracks

  1. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Wasilla, AK
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    923
    Yeah Jim, it's a funny concept until you understand the ability of the crossers to remain affixed to the belting...on the sidewall...while they can move freely out at the tire tread.

    The belting (which ultimately determines overal track length) composes a smaller circumfrence than the tire tread. The overall distance needed to wrap the tire tread itself is longer. The reason that the crossers are able to be affixed to this shorter overal belt length and still manage to wrap the entire "length" of the tire tread is because the end-wrap tires can "splay out" to make up the difference of the end tires. They do this while the belting itself is driven at a slower speed than the tire tread. So for a given tread speed, you have a slower belting speed = gear reduction. The only caveat is that under the "center" tires, the crossers come back together and are no longer "splayed-out" and therefore move under the center tires at the same speed as the slower-moving belting. The center axles are connected via chains to the corners and "want" to match axles speeds. If you don't install track-tuners, the center tires simply have to slip faster than the track crossers that they ride on....that are moving under them. This robs some of the power gained by the gear reduction. Installing track tuners lets the center tires roll incredibly slow...at the speed the track crossers (moving under the center tires)....want them to roll. All additional load that used to be spent "slipping" the center tires (all tracks have to do this to some extent, elevated-belt moreso w/o tuners) if freed up. You get the full advantage of the gear reduction. You still index your tires, and with or without tuners the chains stay loaded properly. But the CVT performance, use of high-range, fuel-economy, engine temps, tire tread life.....all improve with tuners. And they work excellent especially with wider paddles and wider belts...or even the addition of a winter kit. The tracks still turns like it's 8-10 inches wide until you sink. Most of the time, the ground-pressure effect of just the tires is all you need, and the belting doesn't have to plow. Many conditions that would be difficult to turn are no longer that way, and most importantly the crosser/guides cannot move distance relative to one another up on the tire sidewall. The guide portion is extremely stable and is virtually impossible to drive out of. You have to purposely try to do it with either low-tires or a track that's built too long. Even then it happens very slowly and you can almost always catch it and reverse the track, or kick it back on. I've never had it happen on a properly lengthed track, only on an overly loose track during testing. I've never actually had one come off. But to get traction on this design, it's labor intensive. That's why I believe it's not marketed like it should be. Like other examples that are out there.

    The only thing that you can argue is that your wheelbase is 6.5 inches wider on either side. But this does come with additional vehicle stability on land and water. New machines are built with heavy hub flanges. Most guys upgrade their old ones through attrition, and Adair makes 2.5" track tuners. So that's the biggest wheel spacer/tuner combo that you'd really need to use. There really isn't a downside unless your life depends on riding down a trail through large trees (too large to drive over) that is cut only wide enough for quads and small UTVs. So, you got me there.

  2. #12
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Western MD
    Posts
    136
    That would make sense if the outside the circumference of the tire never touched the bottom of the track grouser. But the tracks are being powered by the two outside tires. The track grousers ride on the outside circumference of the tire. Every time the tire rotates the track moves the same distance. So the aatv moves the same distance per tire rotation.
    Courage Invites Critics

  3. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2012
    Location
    Western MD
    Posts
    136
    Never-mind, I figured it out. Since the belt sits further down on the side wall of the tire the distance between the two belts is less ex. 17" on a 22" tire. Therefore the track only moves 53" instead of 69".
    Courage Invites Critics

  4. #14
    Join Date
    Jul 2011
    Location
    Western New York
    Posts
    267
    Quote Originally Posted by Buzz View Post
    MaxIV- I'm glad your tracks work in your conditions. That's all you need.
    Here's a pic showing how you can manipulate the guides even when the track is installed on the machine. Maybe on lighter machines with smaller tires, it's a little more forgiving to driving out.....but I'm skeptical. (garage project style) because I know for a fact it works well.
    Thanks for the pictures. That says volumes about actual applications. You have a much heavier machine with very tall tires compared to mine. Look at how far the tracks wrap your tires and then mine.


    Last edited by MAX IV Mark; 02-02-2014 at 10:13 AM.
    -----\
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    Never argue with an idiot, they will drag you down to their level, then beat you to death with stupidity!

  5. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Berlin WI
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    476
    Quote Originally Posted by thebuggyman1 View Post
    Steve, I was seriously thinking that this was the style track I wanted too, but after an email conversation with Tim @ Adair I have reconsidered..... I'm now leaning towards the "pro series". I made a few assumptions about the "classic" that Tim cleared up for me. Below is a copy of the response Tim sent with a few minor changes by me....call it a paraphrase and not a quote. Hopefully this gets people a little closer to knowing what questions to ask Tim before making their final selection. One more track to consider is the Muddox chevron style Mudd Ox Accessories | Mudd Ox 6 & 8 Wheeler Land & Water Machines I think they would make a great snow track, with occasional mud/water use.......but hard on the machine on dry hard ground



    Classic style Tracks.
    Pro’s

    They have the unique ability to reduce the final drive gearing by about 25%...actual number depends on the size of the tires being used and the exact belt placement on the grouser assembly. In many cases it is approximately 3” so on a machine with 22” tires, it is like running a track over 16” tires so in that example it is a reduction of final drive gearing of about 27%

    They also are a very easy set of tracks to keep guided over the tires and tend to stay on well.

    They are an “open block design” so they tend to clean out very well and are much more aggressive in soft terrain than a factory style “solid block design” track.

    Generally the contact patch can be made smaller and the tread of the grouser can have more of an arch which tends to slip sideways (turn) easier than a flat profile factory type rubber or plastic track.

    They are simpler to machine and generally cost less to build.


    Con’s

    By design, and without “track Tuners” they cause a significant amount of drive train stress and chain windup issues due to the fact that all center tires are still traveling at full speed but driving on top of a track that is trying to roll approximately 25% slower.

    With out “Track Tuners” the tracks tend to be much noisier at mid to high speed because of the “popping” of the center tires and the drive chains as the stress is released.

    Because the design places the belting in the sides of the tires the over all construction tends to require a wider footprint ranging from 17 -27” wide.

    They tend to disrupt the water more and don’t tend to swim as well as other designs.

    Because they are wider they generally require wheel spacers (and “Track Tuners”), which adds width, weight, expense, maintenance, and stress to the machine.

    They are not as easy to splice together and generally just use a simple belt overlap method which results in a rough spot (or stiff spot) in the track.

    Because the belting generally extends past the edge of the grouser and also generally rubs on the sidewall lugs of the tire a typical mechanical hinge splice creates a risk of tub damage or tire damage and therefore is not generally used like in many other track designs.

    The design requires lifting the belting up closer to the belly of the machine which in effect gives up about 3” of ground clearance and flotation in really soft mud or snow. Snow depths of more that a foot generally require modifying the width of this track design from 17-20” to as much as about 27-28” so that it can still give good performance in deeper or softer snow conditions.

    Winter kit added to this design becomes pretty wide, heavy, expensive, and hard on the drive axle assembly of a machine.

    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Pro-Series Tracks

    Pro’s

    Highest customer satisfaction, and most “compared to” design in the world…. J

    Are shipped full assembled and ready to install.

    Design maintains the final drive gearing and speed of a stock machine without tracks.

    Creates very little chain windup and is very easy on the machines entire drive train.

    Has a uniquely narrow footprint for a very aggressive, open block style track.

    Narrow track footprint keeps overall width of the machine very narrow at just an inch or two over a stock width machine, and can be used over the standard 25” tires on a modern 8x8 machine. (All other track options for a modern 8x8 machine with stock 25” tires require the width of the machine to grow by almost a foot or more)

    They tend to be much lighter than most other track designs, especially when covered in mud or ice.

    They are very easy to convert from a narrow summer track to a superior winter track with the simple addition of a bolt on winter kit which increases track width from 14.5” to 18.5” and adds a 7” wide, very aggressive ice cleat for winter traction.

    Can be kept narrow at just 14.5” and still have an effective 3” wide winter ice cleat added to the outside belt for additional traction on frozen surfaces.

    Swim better on a modern 8x8 Argo than any other track design.

    Proven to be a superior blend of traction and flotation in most mud, water, and swamp like conditions, and the open block design is very self cleaning in sticky types of mud.

    Stainless Steel Hinge Splice makes them very simple to install, fully corrosion proof, and they don’t generally require the use of any additional wheel spacers or “Track Tuners” (although ¼” wheel shims are provided to simply take advantage of additional leftover wheel stud length)

    Con’s

    They are slightly more complicated to manufacture and therefore are not the cheapest design to build.

    By design, they are more slippery on hard packed snow and ice than a rubber or steel track if not equipped with either “tire screws, narrow ice cleats, or the wider 7” ice cleat on the optional winter kit.

    More sensitive to tire pressure and track length than wider designs.

    Sat here for a long time trying to be objective and cant really come up with any other downsides to the design…its not perfect, but in my opinion its as close as you can get in an amphibious track design.

    ………………………………………… ………………………………….

    I agree that if you are running an older style of machine that would benefit from the reduction of gearing than the classic style track is a pretty good option especially if deep snow is not much of a consideration. Yes you can add a winter kit to any of these open block, belted styles of track, however the winter kit is more effective on a machine that keeps the belting closer to the ground, although a machine that lifts the winter kit and ice cleats 3” up off the ground will defiantly turn with less effort.

    There is a lot of great info here from Tim, and should help determine the difference between the two track types, and what will work best for you.
    The reason the classic tracks were designed and built, is to compete with other economy tracks,so as to make a track that more people can afford. It only makes sense to open the track market to as many budgets as possible,so as most anybody can afford to track their unit.
    Obviously, the classics are cheaper to make,to fill that nich,and in my opinion a sub standard design compared to the pro series,and has nothing to do with helping promote the pro series, they do that all by themselves.
    I believe in keeping things as simple as possible, or KISS, "keep it simple stupid",and bolting more stuff on to make a track work,just doesnt make sense to me.
    Also,anybody that knows Tim will tell you he is out to make the best possible products,so we can build the best possible rides,and create the best possible fun for our sport.

  6. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Charlotte, Mi/ Houghton Lake Mi
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    2,910



    The pictures make it much easier to understand why the tracks walked off Buzz's machine far more often. Now the question is: Will they walk off my 26" tires on a short wheelbase machine?

  7. #17
    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    NJ 08533
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    Jim you may be ok as you look to be running square 26's and Buzz's Rawhide's look to have 5-8 psi and are doughnut shaped making the track ride higher on the tire, just ny opinion from what I see in the picture.

  8. #18
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Wasilla, AK
    Posts
    923
    are those 12" wheels?
    Ultimately, skinny belts at ground-level allow the guides to tilt and do not offer much resistance to track "twisting". I don't believe the shape of tire radius is going to help too terribly much. Running only a 6-wheel pro-series track will help keep the track on vs. a longer 8-wheel track. You do need to keep the track tight, whether it be higher tire psi or shorter track length. I wouldn't recommend running less than 4-5 psi with tracks because you want your tires to "always" maintain their shape and not squish unless you want to contribute to derailment opportunities. Trying to make a pro-series crosser to fit a square tire might be problematic with where the belt is located, depending on tire width. 10-11 inch tires probably yes, but maybe not on 12-inch wide tires unless you want the crosser to get wider. Either way, you can only tighten up the radius so much and still keep the belt where it is. Even a rubber track (belt at ground level) is harder to "twist". It has its own benefits/drawbacks too. The simple option is to just elevate the belt. Take advantage of wider belts for floatation and increased surface area "paddle" thats beneficial in truly "bottomless" conditions. It turns easier in all conditions. Other designs can offer width, but usually not paddle, and the belt has to "plow" in soft conditions. The moveable-guide problem still exists, and in hard-to-turn conditons, resistance to turning (plowing the belt) adds to the problem. If you're not doing a lot of side-hilling, or do not need to turn in soft conditions, then you can probably get by with a non-elevated-belt track....whether it be solid-surface rubber or open-crosser. Traction enhancer styles start to come into play as well because they offer their own challenges in certain conditions. So it depends on what you need. I run the track I do because it's a simple solutions to all of these concerns. The gear-reduction of an elevated-belt track is excellent if you run an older machine or just want better performance with tracks. It's far easier than swapping gears, tires, or tuning clutches.
    My only recommendation for the "classic" track is for it to be wider, run wider belts, and have cleats on the crossers. Without any of this and 1" plastic, you could argue it's "budget", but I don't really agree with that. Why do I not ever hear of anyone running that track? I haven't seen, read, or talked to one person that has it. I know it's offered for sale (and it's on the website), but what happens when someone calls up to talk about that track? Give it more width and traction, it would be a winner. Throw some track tuners on and spend some quality time running a wide, traction enhanced elevated belt track and the negative opinions and "speculation" go away. It all starts to make sense. And I know I keep saying it......unless you can't fit down that quad trail.

  9. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    west coast B.C.
    Posts
    312
    The reason I went to the elevated belt and a flatter (more square tread style tire) Is the simple fact that the track now has a flatter surface to run on. Far less twisting of the track when you are going over uneven terrain. And its gear reduction for carrying heavy loads. I myself am very happy with the setup. It may not be for ever buddy Yes it did slow the argo down but now I am not working the motor as hard.

  10. #20
    Join Date
    Nov 2009
    Location
    Charlotte, Mi/ Houghton Lake Mi
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    2,910
    Buzz: I am running 12" rims.... stock MaxIV rims and tires. [IMG][/IMG] My wheelbase is 52.5" and the tires barely clear each other. [IMG][/IMG]
    Unfortunately I do not want the gear reduction of the Classic track....I've already reduced the ratio on the jackshaft......but I suppose I could always change back if needed.
    I'm still leaning towards the Pro track hoping the shorter/stiff sidewall of these tires would hold the track better. I was considering swapping tires/rims with my MaxII bigfoot (25x12-9 super grip super light tires Robot Check ) because they do not swim well. [IMG][/IMG]
    The tires ride great due a soft sidewall, so I'm sure they would need the Classic style track just to stay on......still an option I suppose.
    Why is this such a hard choice LOL

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