Adair classic tracks

[Buzz]

I think you'll likely love whatever tracks you put on. You'll learn to use their strengths and be cautious of their weaknessness. And, your machine will go most places with ease.

[kghills]

The pictures make it much easier to understand why the tracks walked off Buzz's machine far more often. Now the question is: Will they walk off my 26" tires on a short wheelbase machine?

I doubt you will have any problems Jim, with the pictures supplied by Buzz and Mark it is pretty easy to see why Buzz was having a problem. Here is a picture of how I understand the Adair grouser is supposed to fit a 25x12x9 Rawhide III tire

I actually increased the amount of air I normally run in my tires to 7psi for these pictures to make sure I was close to what Buzz was doing on his Mudd-Ox. Buzz, it looks like you have the taller narrower 25x11.5x9 Rawhide III tires and maybe a bigger possibly overinflated set at that. Your grousers don't really even seem to fit the profile of the tires correctly. Elevated, Pro Series, Mud and snow, steel link, doesn't matter, all the Adair grousers have inner profiles designed for specific tires. With the amount of day light I can see between your tires and your grousers along with the small amount of wrap around your sidwalls I'm surprised you could drive straight without a problem honestly. I hope the Argo the tracks went on had tires that were a better fit to the grousers.

Now to the elevated track discussion. I read through Jims recount of his conversation with Tim. Have to admit even with reading though Buzz's responses and very good insight I must concur that I feel Tim is spot on. Buzz, you have a Freekin Mudd-Ox, why on earth would you want gear reduction? I mean holy crap, once the turbo diesel or even the big gasser engine is spinning the oversized charge pumps at even 2000RPM the amount of torque the machine is seeing is somewhere near insane. Most Argos have the low gear trannys and low range along with the fact that most AATVs need to run a smaller tire when they are fitted with the types of tracks we are discussing. Sure there are a few machines that would benefit from the gear reduction of the elevated belt design but honestly what percentage of the market do you think that is? My guess is it's pretty small and Tim at Adair actually manufatures and sells tracks as a business so when you ask him his recomendations what would you actually expect? Also look at the market Adair sells to. I would bet most Adair tracks are sold to people who own AATVs and want to use them in very wet conditions. Swamps, marshes, rivers, streams, soupy and even puding type mud. If you take a look at videos from Bosco Beach, the Mud Nationals Rivers Run, FoxValley, Rock Doctor, these are aplications that having a belt or plate system that aids flotation is important. This is also a very large market. add to this the fact that many of the machines that use tracks are running in snow and it is no surprise to me that Adair would promote a track that gives more flotaition and that track is not the elevated design.

This is not meant to be a joke. The first A stands for Amphibious. Again, this is not ment to be a joke and to emphisize this I will add something from the sites home page and I quote: "6x6 World is dedicated to promoting the Amphibious ATV hobby in a positive and family friendly way." Tim's tracks are designed for AATVs. Adair is very serious about this and I feel the Amphibious community is fortunate for this. I mean really. Any track Tim has designed has always had its ability to swim factored in. Adair constantly strives to design and produce a track system that not only performs on the different terrains the machines used on but at the end of the day also actually swim. Tim has found that the extra bulk on the sides of the tires as is typical with the elevated belt creates more turbulance than his other designs and does not swim as well, so again we are back to which track design Adair promotes.

Does the elevated design stay on better? I have not owned the elevated style but believe this to be true, however I will say that all other Adair style tracks stay on extreemly well when properly fit. I may not be the most aggressive driver but in my testing with my MaxIV I have never had my tracks come completely off. Even at Haspin this year when the bottom of the track curled under the bottom the track did not come off. To tell you the truth I do not think my machine has the power to throw a track off. Once the guide side of the grouser starts to try and compress an end tire my clutch will slip or the Kohler engine will stall. Sort of a built in anti track derailment system and I run my tires around 4-5psi and have about 3-4" of hang under my center tire. I really need to take care of that some day I guess. In any case if you really need to make certain the track has the least possible chance of coming off I would think the elevated track is a benefit as Tim stated. Is the elevated track cheaper to produce than a Pro Series? Looking at it I would say this is true. First you are using less belting. Second typically Adair uses fewer grousers on the elevated style because you can run a little greater spacing. Machine time is far less as you only use one tool and the profile is pretty simple. There is no fancy hinge plates on the elevated design like the Pro Series has only overlapping belt. The price of the fastening hardware required for the overlaping belt is slightly higher and assebly time with power tools is about equal when set up. Remember Adair sells and makes between 1-3 sets of tracks a day. They actually have it sort of figured out. And in a buisiness model you would probably need to figure in R&D time for the Pro Series and there would actually be none for the elevated track design as it is just a copy of a very old track system.

Now as far as the bladed inserts Buzz is using in his elevated tracks I think Adair has offered this option for over a year already in elevated and standard designs. There are all sorts of things Tim builds and sells that we never see on 6x6 world due to the forums rules. Same with Matt and Mudd-Ox. I personally find this a little disheartening and have talked to Mike about it but it is what it is. I am sure the Escargo style blades work very well on frozen tundra and such but you need to understand that is a very small market segment and Tim has already sort of addressed it. Now if anyone is looking to make there own tracks I would say that is great. But keep in mind that the reason you might encounter a little negativity when compairing it to Adair tracks is actually very simple. Customer satisfaction. You now have a very large population of satisfied Adair customers and I think given Tim's dedication to the Amphibiouse market thats probably a good thing.

Having owned waffle stlye rubber tracks and having them burn through my lower tub more than once I personally would be very leary of any track design that places a rubber belt anywhere near my lower tub.

I wonder about the track tuner deal also. If you have to have them for the elevated design what happens if you do throw a track. I know I have lost a rubber track a couple times and just drove around without it to get back. I sort of don't like the idea of not all my tires driving if I loose a track but thats me.

Which brings me to my personal biggest problem with elevated track. I sort of think they look really silly. I mean really almost every other thing in the world I am used to looking at doesnt have some goofy looking belt thing running mid way down the tire. To me it just does not look cool. You might laugh at this but as far as marketing goes I think looking cool sometimes goes a pretty long way in marketing a product. I would even venture to say AmphibiousDrew would have extensive knowledge in this arena.

For what it was worth, and yes, to have any tracks is awesome. Keith.

[Buzz]

remember this is my opinion and honest input from actually testing all of these track types and in the name of being helpful. I am actually encouraging anyone else to make an elevated belt (with steel flat bar) crosser as I think it's the best all around crosser shape for all conditions.

Making excuses for why a track derails is pretty weak. Tire/grouser profiles help, sure, but at the end of the day, moveable guide-tips (especially) as the track gets wide or a narrow track sinks into the ground.....will tilt and make it MUCH easier to drive out of the tracks. If your machine doesn't have the power, then wait until you have a flat or low tire. It will happen, and you'll still need to turn/navigate your machine when it does.

In comparison, the escargo style track on my same overinflated, round, non desirable tires, does not come off, never has, and never will. That's the equal comparison in track-styles I'm talking about. The track needs to stay on if at all possible, even if significant track tension is lost. This is a realistic thing that can and does happen.

My mudd-ox does not need the gear reduction. However, when running tracks, loaded heavy, towing heavy and climbing steeply, it absolutely does make a difference. I don't run an elevated belt for this reason alone though. I run an escargo-style track simply because it's the only one that doesn't "fall off" in my conditions (Alaska) and works the best. If you want to talk about a "one size fits all" track, this is definitely it. Over all transitional terrain types...it works everywhere. They swim just fine. Even better in a more bouyant design and the proper track spacing and track spin speed. The adair and escargo video playing in the swamp is not accurate. Not in driving style, track weight, or track spacing. It does not use UHMW at all either. I have heard testimonials of all track types (pro series included) swimming poorly on different machines. All machines are not created equal. Swimming is an incredibly low priority anyway. You're not a boat, and if you really need to move that fast you need a small motor.

R&D cost, sure. Draw up a design in cad, cut it out on plastic if you think it's going to work. I can think of about 50 different designs that I could cut out, but I simply won't do it because I know I will not use anything but an elevated-belt concept. The same hinge can be used on all track types. I understand why the pro-series is made from a "marketing" perspective and assembly labor.

If it works down there on the trails and in the mud-parks....that's great. If it stays on better on 6-wheel machines (for fun) than it does on 8-wheel machines (utility)...all the better. My machine is heavy, sure. That's irrelevant. A track should still stay on in all conditions. Seems pretty simple. My machine empty is equivalent to an Argo Avenger (very common work and hunting machine) with a moderate load. People use their machines for more than just going on group rides. Lowest of low gear and track retainment are huge factors in picking a track for a lot of us. Not all of us. Just a LOT of us, especially in Alaska.

In regards to track tuners, you would have to break a track to not be able to put it back on. Furthermore, the escargo design is the easiest to splice and repair. But, if for some reason you wanted to take or leave the tracks off and continue driving on just tires, remove a wheel, remove a tuner, replace the wheel. There are far worse trailside repairs that have had to happen. If anything is going to happen, the track tuner is going to break long before a track ever does. I'm working on a dual-track experiment in consideration of this very thing. Helpful experiment (with elevated belt/movable crossers at tread level) that's all. If it doesn't pan out, oh well. I won't claim anything until I'm done, and it's tested up here.

As far as the Adair tracks "looking cooler"....

wow
I don't know what else to say.
If someone gave me a pink machine that kicked a$$ I would take it. I definitely wouldn't take the camo machine that wouldn't climb the hill because it "looked cooler."

I like the look of escargo style tracks better anyway. Just my opinion. Looks less like a transformer.

[kghills]

I have no doubt your bladed elevated style tracks work well on your machine and well for your terrain and you should continue to promote them. I would think it prudent to keep in mind a few things along the way. Ask the people you know at Escargo or even Chris at Beaver Dam Argo who distributes them in the USA how many sets they have ever sold. I mean like total, ever. Now look at all the videos of tracked machines posted on this site and think about the fact that most of them are made after the vehicle was towed some place on or in a trailer, think of like a trailer with a nice checkered floor. Now figure Adair is selling 1-3 sets a day. an Ebay listing or two for advertisement and word of mouth. Tim just took delivery of new 15 Argos. (check out his Facebook page for a cool picture) All of them are to be fitted with Pro Series tracks. The tracks are actually selling the machines. I do not think Tim is any kind of marketing genius. I think what you are seeing is the tracks selling themselves. How long has Adair been making and selling tracks compared to other track manufacturers for this market. If there is a nitch market for you to make tracks in Alaska that is really cool but I do not think it would sell to the masses (a relative statement given AATV sales in general) What Adair sells and recommends seems to work, and like I said before they already also make bladed style tracks in elevated or non-elevated configuration. If you can make them for your friend for less in Alaska thats great too. But as it stands I think by what you are seeing in sales numbers and the recommendations Tim gave Jim at the beginning of the thread is still spot on.

"Swimming is an incredibly low priority anyway. You're not a boat..." Exactly what I would expect to hear from someone who would drive a pink machine. And yes I am a boat, I have the hull identification numbers to prove it. I'm just not a speed boat... yet.

Keith.

[Old Tucker]

I hate to say it but sometimes simples physics seems to be forgotten. I have seen it in the auto industry time and time again. For example. The rear brakes on a old chevy. some engineer thought by eliminating two bolts that hold the cylinder in place could save millions. and sold the idea to GM It cost them millions. Now look at your argo. Why is the unit front heavy? Now how could you fix that with a good track system. The germans figured it out in the 50s. And used it on there snow cats and it sold like hotcakes. Argo has tried by putting the largest tire one back from the front. but its a bandaid on a flaw. As for the tracks again its simple physics that will keep the track on. I do think the elevated belt is so far the best I've seen so far. .
You are right paint will not make it a good product. I do not care if it is pink. If it works I will buy.
Some times you must use some common sense. Look at all the big fancy trucks great big tires really nice paint jobs. I never see them in the back country. I can go a lot farther in my old beat up Ranger. It the same with tracks some common sense must come into play here. You will not get a track that is perfect in all conditions. But the more we play with different ideas the better a product will come. Pushing one product over the other because it looks good and the. Adds are telling us its the best. (Just take the Adds with a grain of salt.) As they say In the end it all comes down to, if it looks good and we can make lots of $$$ Who cares if it works. Its just like a big fancy 4x4 sitting in a mall parking lot. LOOKS GOOD

[Buzz]

Until recently, most people couldn't afford Escargo tracks. And they're made in Ontario. At the end of the day, it's expensive to get them to your door. That's why tons and tons of them aren't sold. They are truly a custom job. But the guys that have them and pony up the cash are very happy. Unfortunately, some of us went through multiple other sets of tracks before we ponied up the cash. There are still ways to improve on that design. Of course noone wants to "copy" a proven design because it doesn't give them as much credit for their design. Last I checked, escargo tracks were less expensive, lighter, and performed better....for what that's worth. The internet garbage (coming from one particular club of individuals) doesn't help either. Escargo doesn't need a U.S. dealer. I'm not sure if they even have one at the moment. Much of the information passed through this dealer was innaccurate at times.....seemed to me to be about the time his all-uhmw track was introduced.
Anyway, I digress

For a "classic" thread

Someone asks about this style design, and of course it turns into an expected bump for the pro-series design. I get it, I really do. This forum as a whole has a bit of advertisement quality built in. That's alright. But everybody deserves input.

If that many sets of tracks are sold (sounds like an intimidation maneuver...maybe I'm wrong), why do they continue to be so expensive then? How much profit do you need to make off each set if you can assemble 3 or 4 sets a day? Geez, I could make $150 - $200 dollars an hour easily throwing several "pro series" style tracks together each day, even selling them @ $2900. That's after all costs are covered. That's freighting UHMW to Alaska. I wouldn't say anything if not for the wide disparity in price between it and the "classic." I would love to see anyone actually running a "classic", I just don't believe that's even part of the plan.

And I mean what I say about that design being sufficient in your conditions. If it is great. I'm trying to help inform those that run in conditions similar to mine. Most people new to argos don't know what they're missing. They only know that a tracked machine really seems go go exeptionally well compared to a tired machine. This websiet is definitely geared mostly towards new guys, with a handful of experienced parties giving input. Some biased, some not.
Not everyone can afford to buy a new HDI or 8 sets of tires. The easy-to-attain power advantage of an elevated belt track has huge benefits on older machines. Climbing, towing, and especially turning. Whether it be simply in the mud/snow ......or on conditions like we face in Alaska.
Until the last few years, most guys strictly ran argo tracks because that was available. Some made homemade styles, occasionally someone would pony up and buy buldoc or escargo tracks. But, most of what was used was factory tracks. Not many people have any worthy experience running an elevated belt track. Nobody likes to copy anything.......so I understand why a "new" pro-series design comes off as amazing or "improved." But the way it's marketed..... is at the expense of extremely reliable, tenured, and proven designs such as escargo which simply work everywhere. Adding additional width does not add a lot of additional strain or weight.
I prefer the hinge for what's that's worth, even though an overlap provides for easier "adjustment" and overall strength, even if a bit more time consuming to fabricate and install. I've used the hinge multiple times and it's super quick to install.

And to be clear, I don't have any master plan to make tracks. I have Zero invested and do not need to manipulate any statements, videos, or tests. I have nothing at stake. I do this because it's fun, and I enjoy trying to make things better. And, I have a hard time not calling things like I see them. If a guy wants to come to me and wants to cut up a sheet of plastic, we'll do it. If they're happy with what they currently have, that's cool too. But I won't push anything. Usually guys get interested after taking a ride and getting the whole story. I just don't want somebody up here to be disappointed. And I would hope others would at least take some input. Remember there are lots of 8 wheel machines up here that work hard. Hunting, fishing, or even in the oil field and on tundra. I'm not sure I've seen a pink one though!

[kghills]

Honestly? Now you are talking about how much money you think another business or person deserves to make? Knowing nothing of their overhead, number of employees, benefits they offer, business taxes in their area etc. Wow. Starting to sound like the posts that bash Richards Relics or cry about the cost of some Max parts from RI. I do not see how cost of production and any companies profit margin is at all relevant here. But that's me I guess. Also Adair has already copied the classic track, and it's their cheapest track, and it's the track you prefer. The fact that Adair offers it at the lowest cost would make you happy I would think. Since you have no interest in making tracks just tell your friends how well the elevated tracks perform and tell them to call Adair because it's the cheapest track they sell and you think it's the best. You and all the people who use them can post pictures and videos of how well they perform and people can look at them and see how well elevated tracks match their application from what they see. I don't really see any big conspiracy here as you are implying. You want to put blades in the tracks, great or just have them order them from Adair with blades, Tim has had them for over a year from what I remeber. Again it's great you are pointing out how well the bladed elevated tracks work in your application when there are so many running non elevated open grouser styles and especially Adair tracks it is only natural to have the most comments from them I would think. If you think another brand of track is better than the Adairs that s cool also. Again post videos, organize or go to group rides (might be harder in AK) but in any case that's what I see driving the Adair track sales. Why it didn't happen with other brands? And think about the numbers. A very small percentage of forum members who have Adair tracks account for Tim's track sales. I think you will find Tim's recommendations to be what he finds works and that is why he is able to sell so many tracks and machines. If you ever get a chance to visit Adair I think you would be amazed how many sets of tracks they are selling to what I would think is a pretty small market. And as soon as any new kind of track is on a machine, into the pond it goes to see how it swims. Again the first A in AATV.

I can also assure you the elevated Classic Track design is the cheapest for Adair to manufacture. If you have a face book account you might want to send Tim a friends request. In two weeks I think a shipment of 8x8 Frontiers is scheduled to arrive that will all get the Adair Classic tracks. The machines are built to Adair's specifications and will sell at a price WITH Classic Tracks at about the same price other dealers sell machines without tracks. If Tim is as greedy as you are implying wouldn't it make more sense to put your cheapest to manufacture track on your low cost machine to make the most profit? Yes it does and that is why they will be equipped with Classic Tracks. I hope you are not going to hold a grudge against all the other Argo dealers in the country selling Frontiers equipped similarly except without tracks for the same price and making more money than you think they should. But than again if they are pink....

Keith.

[thebuggyman1]

Wow, poor Steve W. He started this thread to try and figure out if the Classic style track was right for him.......and then we all kindof usurped the thread.
Keith: Buzz has contributed good "food for thought" here, and his opinions are.... His & Opinions. Anyone reading the forum here should understand that, much the same as Tim Schafers opinions are his own. For that matter, my opinions (even though they are always right) are just opinions too.

I know the discussion here has helped me understand the track differences. Hopefully it has helped Steve W and others too.
Can we please keep the discussion constructive?
I've seen Keith's machine in action, and have driven MaxIV Marks...and perhaps they are not perfect, but they do blow tires alone away.

[Anthony]

Hi there I have a set of pro tracks from Tim and mike on my 8x8 frontier and they are awesome I run the machine with the tracks all year the best money I spent you will get an honest opionion from those guys regarding the best track for your teraine

[kghills]

No worries here Jim. I really found Buzz's perspective and experiences with the different styles of tracks enlightening. No real interest in discussing others profit margins however. Wish there was more video available of other track styles on amphibs in same conditions. Or like different styles all on the same ride. Now that would be cool. Hopefully others will post videos soon. We all love videos here I know.

Keith.