No tuners with offset rims?

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Thread: No tuners with offset rims?

  1. #1

    No tuners with offset rims?

    I have some Beaver Dam tracks coming my way, and have been trying to do some research on wheel rap, and set ups with tuners. After some digging, I realized I had offset rims, and that tuners may not be an option. So my question is, if tuners are not an option, what would be the next best setup? Will a good wheel indexing suffice; should I remove a drive chain (if so front or rear)? Oh yeah, I am running a 2019 Frontier. All thoughts, opinions, and criticisms are appreciated!

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Location
    Savannah, Georgia
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    Quote Originally Posted by CreekMud View Post
    I have some Beaver Dam tracks coming my way, and have been trying to do some research on wheel rap, and set ups with tuners. After some digging, I realized I had offset rims, and that tuners may not be an option. So my question is, if tuners are not an option, what would be the next best setup? Will a good wheel indexing suffice; should I remove a drive chain (if so front or rear)? Oh yeah, I am running a 2019 Frontier. All thoughts, opinions, and criticisms are appreciated!

    A few things to think about here,
    1) You can use the reversible rims with a track tuner if you take the inside air valve and put in BACKWARDS or with the stem inside the rim.
    2) Next, what is the depth of the track turners? If it is 2 inches put a two inch wheel extension on the other rims, if it is 2 1/2 inches use a 2 1/2 wheel extension on the other wheels.
    3) if you need a custom sized wheel extension there are several machine shops that will cut you a custom set (years ago I have a custom set of 1 1/2 wheel extension made for my Max).
    4) I WOULD NEVER RUN THE BEAVER DAM TYPE TRACKS WITHOUT TRACK TURNERS-THEY WILL EAT YOUR CHAINS, SPROCKETS, AND BEARINGS BECAUSE EVERY WHEEL TURNS AT A DIFFERENT SPEED AND THE TIRES WON'T SLIP IN THESE TRACKS.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Utah
    Posts
    402
    I have been doing a lot of experimenting with the reversible rims and tuners on my 2018 Frontier 8x8 LE (aka green Scout). I reversed/flipped a front tire/rim and then put a tuner (2.5 " spacing) on the next tire (#2) back without reversing/flipping it and they were aligned with each other. I was able to tuck the valve stem behind the tuner hub on this rim while it was off the machine and then try it for alignment. I obviously couldn't bolt this rim on, but I held it by hand on the axle to check alignment.

    There are a few types of flat/low profile valve stems that should work with the tuners and still be an operational valve if you ever wanted to run the rims the other way again.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Wasilla, AK
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    923
    1) thorn is correct- flip tires/rims on corners “deep dish out”, install tuners directly to middle axles, then install middle tires/rims “deep dish in”. Your aligment is virtually spot on- not enough difference to affect anything tire/track related over the 26.33” axle-to-axle between #1/2 and #3/#4. It is not a space shuttle. I usually cut and push through the old valve stem on the deep dish side of the middle rims, then install a new one backwards to act like a permanent plug. This is really only necessary on the wider rims for 12” tires. On the narrower rims with 10” wide tires, the deep dish side valve stem will has adequate clearance to avoid the axle flange/lug stud area, but I normally still just replace them rather than fight getting the valve stem bent to clear the track tuner.
    2) It depends how much spacing your beaver dam hybrid track requires. If it requires more spacing, then you’ll need track tuners wider than 2.5” and will also need to add additional spacing to your corner axles. This can be a little problematic depending on how much additional space is needed and how much lug stud length you have to work with on your axles. Normally the reversible rims are designed to work w/o additional spacers being required since the longer axles are part of this package.
    FYI, I have 3-4 extra pairs of 3” Adair track tuners from several seasons back that I never used if you need. I don’t believe they make them in 3” anymore. The backer plate/spindle is the same as the 2.5” tuners , but the flange on the idler hub sits an additional 1/2” out if I remember correctly. These days I design my tracks to work with 2.5” tuners/spacers/factory offset rims for obvious reasons (simple) and the grousers are all 1.5” thick uhmw w/rounded surfaces where the tread lugs hit. They can be run with or without tuners and will not bend. Your beaver dam grousers (hybrid track or all-steel) are likely narrower and will likely require less air pressure in the middle tires to reduce slipping force since the narrower grousers can fall between tire lugs more easily.
    3)You can certainly forgoe the tuners and allow your middle tires to drive/slip on the slower moving track. This does require additional power, but the machine can handle it, and the chains will stay properly loaded (opposite the tensioners in the forward direction). Going reverse is hard on all machines with ratcheting tensioners, tracks or not. What you want to avoid is having too much air in your middle tires. You do not want a rougher than necessary ride (and also shock loads axles/bearings), and you do not want the tire carcass/tread lugs to be too stiff which makes it more difficult for them to slip on the track.
    All tracks if the tires are indexed properly will overdrive their middle tires to an extent. If you have an elevated belt track and choise to drive middle tires, just lower the air pressure in the middle tires down to maybe 1/2 - 1 psi to allow the tire carcass and tread lugs to flex so they can squish/slip past the track grousers more easily. With an elevated belt track you can do this (even though it makes the middle tires shrink in circumference) without having to worry about the middle tires be rotated prematurely by the track. The middle tires in an elevated belt track will always overdrive the track unless they become 5-6” or more SMALLER than the corners. Non elevated belt tracks like argo rubber, adair, ect, cannot significantly lower their middle tire psi w/o affecting tire circumfrence and indexing requirements, so adjusting ride and track tension w/o tuners is limited to the track length when built and how it is compatible with your particular batch of tires. Instead, all tires need to be raised or lowered in pressure EQUALLY to maintain indexing pattern. Corner tires affect track tension, middle tires affect the ride to some extent but NOT track tension at all. Sets of tires vary greatly, do not always hold air reliably, and change circumfrence greatly from flat to 7 psi. An elevated belt track does give you some flexibility in adjusting ride and track tension (even swapping large and small pairs of tires from the corners to the middle and vice versa depending on your particular batch of tires, with or without tuners, instead of having to modify track length. Running tuners simply eliminates slipping requirement of middle tires and reduces load. Some guys like em, others have decided to take them off, drpending on whether or not they want to quicly be able to drop their track if wanted.
    Your corner tires will be synchronized with the track, and your middle tires will be synchronized with each other (whether over-driven relative to track, or free-wheeled, matching track). If you run tuners you’ll gain the ability to have your CVT shift out and allow the machine to gain additional speed if the terrain load requirements are low. And you’ll save fuel. But you don’t HAVE to use them. I’ve changed my tune a bit over the years. I still prefer them, moreso on older, lower hp machines with less bulletproof drivetrains. Remember all chains, axles, and sprockets turn at the same speed. The issue is how well your imperfect batch of tires (some of them) can adjust slightly while inside the track. All tracks have to deal with this, and there are many factors.

    I hope that makes sense, just holler if not. I’m peck typing on my phone (arrgh)
    Last edited by Buzz; 12-07-2020 at 01:15 PM.

  5. #5
    I just wanted to thank you guys for the responses. It is a great wealth of information!! It appears that I am going to have to test the theory that turner’s are not completely necessary. It has come to my attention that tuners are out of stock, with no idea when they may be produced and restocked. You all have been great, thanks again!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Wasilla, AK
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    923
    Just FYI, on the newest steel offset rims (with locking rings) that come on Aurora models with 12” wide tires, there is no clearance problem at all with deep dish side valve stems. We have opted to replace some deep dish side valve stems (with backwards installed valve stems) on the narrower frontier rims and also on aluminum offset wheels. On the frontier rims, it is done simply to avoid wrestling with the valve stem. On the aluminum rims it appears to be necessary. Either way, very simple. But on newer steel rims w/12” wide tires, no problem at all. Tuners or not, no prob!

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