cost of production

[Hogneck]

Mnm ,we are talking about small engines man ! There ain't no college courses for off road'n come on, get simple or get real on the topic.

Well, I had no idea my post would solicit the responses it did while I was on a plane and it was certainly not my intent to offend anyone- so to anyone or any organization I did, I offer you my FULL and UNQUALIFIED apology. I have no reservation whatsoever in doing so and even bowing down and begging forgiveness for my impasse. I was basically voicing observations from my experience in areas coupled with posts here and soliciting comments.

Obviously I touched some sensitive nerves and the point to not touch them as been acknowledged and will not be breeched again.

So, formally and officially I offer my sincerest apology and will not allow it to happen again. I hope those offended will accept it in that vein.

That being said, I would like to offer some commentary to some comments made that are based in physics and the reality of business which was the basis of my post because regardless of opinion, those 2 rule the day. Its not like this is a “1 man show” on my end.

Without calling any specific poster out- I’ll address some key points

yes I have. You raised a legitimate question deserving legitimate answers. I was contracted to work with armor holdings and pinzgauer back in the day (specifically on “task force Gates” when it was an operational priority but even before then) long before they were swallowed up by BAE ( who I did later in the sands). I also have a pretty long history with Anniston Army depot where they rebuild tanks. I think I have the “government” and major corporation” end covered. ( completely discounting civilian companies like Cat, Deere, Link Belt) I think I can hold my own there.

Yes, I have an acknowledged deficit when it comes to RV’s and “playing” with things but I believe it’s a little offset when they are used in industrial and combat environments since I have been both crew and evaluator and been one of thes one recommending upgrades. I guess that theater depends on which one you play in or consider of paramount importance. I’m not sure how to correlate it in the recreational world but I really believe I have the “sense of urgency” because if I made mistakes and breakdowns happened then people didn’t get stuck in the mud- they simply died.

Also, it doesn’t take a good engineer to recognize a bad design. The operational failures and physics will prove themselves- I don’t have to. That seems to be an issue if the threads here are believed to be true and accurate.

If anyone ever intends to bring a product to market- you BETTER ask those “painful” questions and bring them to the forefront because if you do not then you need to be prepared to lose your @zz. That’s my purpose here because if I (we) cannot offer something significantly better in some measurable realm then it would be foolish to try. You better know the “good, bad and ugly” and have an infrastructure prepared to handle it or your next step is BANKRUPTCY COURT. Thats a simple guarantee and a mistake I don’t intend to take.

I came here asking questions ( and as an offset offering experience because nothing is for free) for personal and professional reasons. Many have contributed to that and I appreciate that and hope they continue. I thank them all and they have given me invaluable insight.

Again, I apologize profusely to anyone I accidently offended and I promise to try to not do it again. I promise that.

To those that may be fueled by pride, bravado or whatever- start an “octagon” thread and get in it and lets all see what real engineering went into these designs and maybe discover what might have been overlooked.I may not know the answer immediately because I specialize in certain areas but I believe I have the resources and contacts to find out the answer in those areas I don’t.

Since I was challenged- I see it as only honest to answer that challenge and see if the math ( based on the components) or the “field performance” matches up with what they should ( to design specs).

If I mistake this then again I apologize but I view this as a gauntlet being thrown down. I am fully capable and ready to answer any such challenge so I’m throwing my own gauntlet down as a counter challenge.

Give us these “mysterious” design and engineering claims several have obfuscated about but not actually shown and lets all test them for all to see. I would like to see them and do the math personally. They may prove very useful. ( I have no problem whatsoever answering any similar challenge because if my math is wrong I want someone to point it out)

I would love to see vehicle geometry, drive train torques, component application, force to loads for uneven terrain and all these other equations that went into everything- I hope they exist so we can examine them all or otherwise there may be more truth in my post that some seem to despise than some really want to admit because they might want to talk around it rather than answer it directly.

OK, mines on the table, time to ante up- lets see where the data falls

[mark m.]

Drew and others. Lets be a little more forgiving towards M&m. He certainly is very knowledgable and I believe he can be an a great source of information and an asset to this forum. I will agree M&m should aquire a 6x6 or 8x8 and run it hard till it breaks. Then that information can be personally scrutinized so as to provide first hand experience and fixes for it. It appears he has commercial/military goals for AATV's but that knowledge which can be gained from that endeaver could help our causes too.

I for one enjoy what he can bring to the hobby.

[amphibious drew]

M&m you just don't get it. You apologize and then challenge everyone on the site. No-one here needs to prove anything to you. Our members take the time to know each other personally. We drive hundreds of miles to hang out and help each other out. We are a tight nit community with no room for arrogance like you display. And as for your experience, I don't think anyone here cares what you claim to have done. Maybe you should stop insisting on answering questions before your attitude gets you banned from our site. Go back to reading only so most of us can forget about you and your ignorant comments.

[Hogneck]

I am happy to be able to come here and find a "fix" with my machine so I can be out the door riding and not worry about what should and could be. People here have been great at helping others and I would like to see this grow and continue on what it was founded for. Promote the hobby !

[Hogneck]

Well, M&M I wondered how long it would be before someone else realized you were writing VOLUMES of information, but really were saying nothing directly pertaining to the topic. I got really close to giving ya one of these a couple of days back. Now I realize, and at this point I'm certain everyone else does, that you have a degree in something or other, but hey, let's stick to the topic. If you want to help just tell us what bearing would best suit the abuse/misuse we so love to regularly inflict upon our machines...In as few words as possible. Or what /who makes the toughest meanest sprockets and chains available. Those would help and you would be everyone's hero for sure.

[Rock Doctor]

I like Argo's, vroom vroom

RD

[mudNmallards]

Well, I had no idea my post would solicit the responses it did while I was on a plane and it was certainly not my intent to offend anyone- so to anyone or any organization I did, I offer you my FULL and UNQUALIFIED apology. I have no reservation whatsoever in doing so and even bowing down and begging forgiveness for my impasse. I was basically voicing observations from my experience in areas coupled with posts here and soliciting comments.

Obviously I touched some sensitive nerves and the point to not touch them as been acknowledged and will not be breeched again.

So, formally and officially I offer my sincerest apology and will not allow it to happen again. I hope those offended will accept it in that vein.

That being said, I would like to offer some commentary to some comments made that are based in physics and the reality of business which was the basis of my post because regardless of opinion, those 2 rule the day. Its not like this is a “1 man show” on my end.

Without calling any specific poster out- I’ll address some key points

yes I have. You raised a legitimate question deserving legitimate answers. I was contracted to work with armor holdings and pinzgauer back in the day (specifically on “task force Gates” when it was an operational priority but even before then) long before they were swallowed up by BAE ( who I did later in the sands). I also have a pretty long history with Anniston Army depot where they rebuild tanks. I think I have the “government” and major corporation” end covered. ( completely discounting civilian companies like Cat, Deere, Link Belt) I think I can hold my own there.

Yes, I have an acknowledged deficit when it comes to RV’s and “playing” with things but I believe it’s a little offset when they are used in industrial and combat environments since I have been both crew and evaluator and been one of thes one recommending upgrades. I guess that theater depends on which one you play in or consider of paramount importance. I’m not sure how to correlate it in the recreational world but I really believe I have the “sense of urgency” because if I made mistakes and breakdowns happened then people didn’t get stuck in the mud- they simply died.

Also, it doesn’t take a good engineer to recognize a bad design. The operational failures and physics will prove themselves- I don’t have to. That seems to be an issue if the threads here are believed to be true and accurate.

If anyone ever intends to bring a product to market- you BETTER ask those “painful” questions and bring them to the forefront because if you do not then you need to be prepared to lose your @zz. That’s my purpose here because if I (we) cannot offer something significantly better in some measurable realm then it would be foolish to try. You better know the “good, bad and ugly” and have an infrastructure prepared to handle it or your next step is BANKRUPTCY COURT. Thats a simple guarantee and a mistake I don’t intend to take.

I came here asking questions ( and as an offset offering experience because nothing is for free) for personal and professional reasons. Many have contributed to that and I appreciate that and hope they continue. I thank them all and they have given me invaluable insight.

Again, I apologize profusely to anyone I accidently offended and I promise to try to not do it again. I promise that.

To those that may be fueled by pride, bravado or whatever- start an “octagon” thread and get in it and lets all see what real engineering went into these designs and maybe discover what might have been overlooked.I may not know the answer immediately because I specialize in certain areas but I believe I have the resources and contacts to find out the answer in those areas I don’t.

Since I was challenged- I see it as only honest to answer that challenge and see if the math ( based on the components) or the “field performance” matches up with what they should ( to design specs).

If I mistake this then again I apologize but I view this as a gauntlet being thrown down. I am fully capable and ready to answer any such challenge so I’m throwing my own gauntlet down as a counter challenge.

Give us these “mysterious” design and engineering claims several have obfuscated about but not actually shown and lets all test them for all to see. I would like to see them and do the math personally. They may prove very useful. ( I have no problem whatsoever answering any similar challenge because if my math is wrong I want someone to point it out)

I would love to see vehicle geometry, drive train torques, component application, force to loads for uneven terrain and all these other equations that went into everything- I hope they exist so we can examine them all or otherwise there may be more truth in my post that some seem to despise than some really want to admit because they might want to talk around it rather than answer it directly.

OK, mines on the table, time to ante up- lets see where the data falls

[jerseybigfoot]

Now, now folks lets not be so hard on Mudma. He hasn't driven a AATV yet. If he is interested in designing his own machine, let him do it. The outcome will be either too expensive or too heavy for the person reading this forum. Now if he analyzed the AAtv shortcomings he would be looking in in entirely different direction. We know Whipper looked down that road and found a solution. This thread is gotten away from the original intent and is now on the Sky Harbor parking garage exit ramp.

[brushcutter]

Hey Mudnmallards,

If you answered "No" to any of the previous questions, then your statements such as the ones you made in the previous post have NO value whatsoever (no matter how much NON-AATV experience and education you may have) and your posts will be completely disregarded by members on the site searching for useful information. The members of 6X6World are here to learn, help each other, and gather as a community so that our hobby can grow and prosper in a non commercial matter. You seem like you have some potential to become a helpful and contributing member of this site, but since your AATV experience is zero at this time, please save us the time and save Mike the server space for posts that are more rational and helpful to other members of this forum.

Well, M&M I wondered how long it would be before someone else realized you were writing VOLUMES of information, but really were saying nothing directly pertaining to the topic. I got really close to giving ya one of these a couple of days back. Now I realize, and at this point I'm certain everyone else does, that you have a degree in something or other, but hey, let's stick to the topic. If you want to help just tell us what bearing would best suit the abuse/misuse we so love to regularly inflict upon our machines...In as few words as possible. Or what /who makes the toughest meanest sprockets and chains available. Those would help and you would be everyone's hero for sure.

[mustangwagz]

Time to turn on the spam filter...

[fmints]

United We Stand !!!!! You go Jeff!

[whipper-ag]

but since your AATV experience is zero at this time, please save us the time and save Mike the server space for posts that are more rational and helpful to other members of this forum.

You said it all Jeff, Thanks.

Whipper

[Beeman]

Uh oh. Someone divided by 0.

[jpswift1]

Hey Mudnmallards, So you SERIOUSLY doubt that any "engineering" went into these machines?

So do you know the vast history of 4, 6, and 8 wheeled amphibious ATVs, visited and talked to the ENGINEERS at the headquarters of manufacturers such as Recreatives Industries and Ontario Drive and Gear, do you know even the names and contributions of the gentleman that pioneered this industry such as Bill Gerber, Lowell Chrisco, Jerry Atkinson, Sid Wallach, and John Gower, have you spent any time driving, rebuilding, and repairing or upgrading an AATV, do you know the about the major corporations and government agencies that had influences on these machines, or have you had ANY hands on experience or know any background about the ENGINEERING that has been done throughout the many years that AATVs have been produced?

If you answered "No" to any of the previous questions, then your statements such as the ones you made in the previous post have NO value whatsoever (no matter how much NON-AATV experience and education you may have) and your posts will be completely disregarded by members on the site searching for useful information. The members of 6X6World are here to learn, help each other, and gather as a community so that our hobby can grow and prosper in a non commercial matter. You seem like you have some potential to become a helpful and contributing member of this site, but since your AATV experience is zero at this time, please save us the time and save Mike the server space for posts that are more rational and helpful to other members of this forum.

[amphibious drew]

If only life was this easy......

If only odg or ri could afford an engineer. The trails would be paved in gold and covered with diamond boulders. its amazing those companies ever figured out water displacement and propulsion.