New or Used

[fcris]

Hey All,

I'm new to this forum, as well as new to Argo's, but not to ATV's in general. I'm trying to decide whether I want to buy a new 8x8 750 or a used 2004 8x8 Avenger with 165 hours. The 2004 has about every option you could put on it, from tracks to a snow plow, though I have little use for the plow.

I have maximum syndrome, so my gut say get the 750 with more HP, but I don't have a lot of room on our property to rip around. Mostly, I'll be crawling around in a semi wet swamp.

I've been reading up on different models, and what you guys have to say about transmissions, motors, and chains, but I still can't decide.

If I purchased a new 750, I would probably get tracks and a windshield kit along with a winch. So I either purchase the use one for $15K or a new one for about $28K.

Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks,
Frank

[foxvalley]

Unless you are loaded,I would go the used route especially if this is your first argo.But..... I would only buy a used unit if someone has gone thru the whole thing, top to bottom,bearings,chains,motor trans, etc. and I would want to talk to the guy that went thru it and get his 2 cents. On the flip side,the one big advantage to going new, besides the HD bearings and axles is the cool admiral tranny.I have the 2011 750 with the standard admiral tranny,it is AWESOME!! If you do decide to go new though,the high torque low speed tranny is even better. I remember how exited I was at your stage of the game! Good luck in your decision.

[mudbug3]

When comparing the older style ' open differential ' transmission that's in the 2004, Argo 8x8 to the ' admiral steering' transmission that now comes in all of the new Argo's, its a HUGE difference in turning ease. The admiral transmissions in the new Argo's being made now is like driving an Argo that has power steering. This is how much easier the new admiral transmission turns when compared to the open style differential that skid steers.

[thebuggyman1]

Frank, it sounds like you are looking at this one. ARGO AVENGER 8x8 ATV

Gee, I have an Identical one (2005)....I'd sell much cheaper. LOL If you are that close to me, come on by and you can drive mine (Argo and Max), see what you like.

[foxvalley]

Frank,
The HDI has been around for a while,if you looked you might be able to find a used loaded HDI for a few K more than the avenger.

[red bricks]

I have this exact machine. 265 hrs. no top or windshield but I have the plow. I have had no major issues. Just keep the machine maintained well. I don't drive it hard and with those tracks ive never been stuck. and I've been in the worst

[fcris]

Nice job guys. All this new info just gives me more to think about.
If I can’t make a decision, I may just have to build my own.

Briefly, can you clarify the transmission thing. I know what skid steer is, but I’m not sure which years, models or makes have one or the other.

It’s hard for me to follow which vehicle you guys refer to when talking about transmissions.
What’s the T-20 trans, and which UTV or years have it?
Which year did the ARGO stop using the “skid steer trans”... if at all.
How does the Admiral trans differ from the older model transmissions.
Does the MaxII have skid steering?

Sorry about all the silly questions.

Thanks again guys,
Frank
centralmetalfab.com

[thebuggyman1]

Sorry Frank, It just slips our minds that new people don't know the basics.
AATV History 101: Skid steering is basically just sliding sideways, the way all amphibs must without front wheels that turn like other vehicles. The term "skid steer" may be trade marked by Recreatives (Max)...kindof like saying Kleenex instead of facial tissue....even if Puffs made it, I'm still going to blow my nose in a Kleenex.

Amphibs. started out with slip clutch systems, 2 stage turning. 1st stage: disconnect the drive on one side so only the other side is driving. 2nd stage: brake the disconnected side.
The slip clutch machines lasted into the early 70's, but it really wasn't the best system, and most did not have reverse.

Mid to late 60's ODG (Argo) Gears, ODG Gearboxes, ODG Quiet Gears, ODG Custom Transmissions, KTR Couplings began making amphibs with an open differential transmission. The new Avenger HDI models have a triple differential trans, but this does not skid steer. In high it drives the outside wheels at 3 times the speed of the inside. In low it drives the inside wheels backwards at 1/3 the rate of the outside. I have less than 5 minutes drive time in one of these machines....too little to form an opinion.

Same time frame Borg-Warner made the t-20 and sold it to many diff. mfgr.s. Recreatives (Max) and Hustler bought the rights to this trans, then Hustler went out of business.
The t-20 is 2 transmissions in one case, both halves operate independently of each other,so if one side slips in the mud, the other side keeps driving.
The t-20 works by having 2 drums(each side), one with planetary gears the other with a ring gear. The sun gear is attached to the input shaft. When the sticks are centered, each drum turns in an opposite direction. Sticks fwd or back will tighten a band on one drum allowing the other to turn. the fwd/rev selector determines which drum is attached to the output shaft. This all happens in one half of the trans, with the other half being identical. See the rebuild videos http://www.6x6world.com/forums/conte...build-how.html

Mudd-ox uses hydaulic pumps/motors to drive each side. The system works great, but they are heavier machines geared more towards the commercial market....do not compare a Mudd-ox to a MaxII or an Attex. They are completely different animals. I asked Santa for a Mudd-ox this year, but I don't think the fat guy is going to deliver.

[fcris]

Great info.
Having driven many skid steer construction machines, I understand what can suck about trying to have fun with one of these. Some are proportional to the sticks. Meaning when you want to turn a little to the left, it turns while both tracks are still moving. Some have to stop driving the inside track. So either your going straight, or your pivoting. I would rather not have the latter.

As for Argo's, I think I understand... They used to have a skid steer trans. And now they have the HDI trans. What is in the Argo's just before the HDI? In other words, if I get a 2008 which type of steering trans will it have?

Frank

[thebuggyman1]

Up until the HDI trans the Argo's had a standard differential type trans. I believe there were different versions through the years, but they all worked the same. You apply brake to one side while the spider gears in the differential force the other side to turn. This design allows for the inside wheels to lock up, giving a "skid steer" type turn. It however does not allow for a sweeping type turn. To do a sweeping turn you need to do a series of small turns. The other issue with the differential type trans, single and triple(HDI), is the fact that they really only drive one side at a time. When the side with the least amount of traction starts to slip, the machine goes nowhere. The driver must then apply brake to that side to force the other side to turn. A little too much brake pressure and the machine still will not go anywhere. This requires MORE driver skill, and a feel for the machine to get through the same rough areas as a true 6 or 8 wd machine. I find operating the T-20 machines to be much easier, and a Mudd-ox with the hydraulic drive would be similar. Watch the 2 videos I posted here http://www.6x6world.com/forums/trans...vs-t-20-a.html The driver there did not "feather" the steering, and it caused the machine to be jerky. I would have driven it the same way, because I DON'T have the "feel" or skill with the Argo trans. that other members have. With enough time in the drivers seat, I'm sure I would pick it up, but I just like my other machine more.

[foxvalley]

With the admiral trans,all the jerkiness is gone,and you get a real smooth turn.....in high gear. Low gear is a whole different animal all together.Extremly aggresive.You are going slower,but the turning is,or can be very sharp.You can turn an argo 180 in the length of itself.One thing that I don't like,is that in both high and especially in low,the unit has to be moving slightly or the steering "binds" Alot of first timers crank the t handle before the unit is moving,and you can just feel bad things wanting to happen.Low gear is only recomended in really nasty conditions,I use mine all the time just cuz they tell me not to,and have had zero issues.Mostly negotiating stump fields.

[thebuggyman1]

I guess I need to get some driving time in on a new HDI ......I might just like it.

[foxvalley]

I'm really looking forward to jumping on a 6x6 650 HD with the admiral tranny and a set 18 inch tracks, I was very impressed with the bigfoot with the 18", and the admiral in a shorter lighter 6x6 might just be the ticket.

[mudbug3]

foxvalley

Because the new machines that Argo produces now are geared so tall, I'm in low gear almost all of the time in really thick mud and really tight trail conditions. I have 132 hours now on my 2010 , Argo frontier ,and I've had zero issues with the admirail transmission. I really enjoy the ease in which my 6x6 navigates tight turns. Like you said, low gear does'nt like to make turns if you're not moving ,or you'll hear lots of poping noises coming from the admiral transmission.

[foxvalley]

Thanks mudbug3
My old vanguard had the manual sticks,so I can't even amagine how well yours handles.