80's Argo with Honda engine swap problems with clutch

[Terra]

I have never owned an argo, but my hunting partners and I have been actively looking for one to use moose hunting. The area we usually hunt is getting busier every year, and we need to get back further into the bush, away from all the rest of the hunters to increase our success rate.
We have found an 80's argo (orange) that someone has swapped in a honda engine, the problem is that in order to shift gears, you have to shut off the engine, not something you would want to do in a tight spot. Is this something that anyone else has experience with. The present owner, said he bought it that way, and the previous owner had switched out some weights with no results. The price seems right ($3,500.00) if you take into account the cost of a new honda, and salvage value for the rest of the Argo (it has tracks, a spare tire, and an assortment of spare parts)
We have had some discussion about spending the extra cash and buying a newer one, we don't want to buy trouble, but if this one is an easy fix, then great. We are close to an area where we could buy a couple year old used oilfield argo for under $10,000.00, maybe less if we can buy it from the actual user instead of the guy who bought it, and does some maintenance to flip it.
Thanks in advance for your advice.

[Rock Doctor]

The only reason you should have to shut the engine off is to get the Trans input shaft to stop spinning.
Is the engine idle set as low as you can get it? If the Primary Clutch is spinning too fast at an Idle, the clutch may be trying to engage. Also, if the Spring in the Primary Clutch is loosing it's strength, it will let the clutch engage at a lower than normal RPM. Lastly, if the belt is too short, Friction between the Clutch Shaft and the inner side of the belt will cause the belt to turn, which will spin your Secondary Clutch making it hard to shift.
You could tear the Primary Clutch out and put a new spring in it. There is also the option of putting a Shim under the Primary Spring to increase the spring tension. Personally, I would do both. A new spring, and a shim will increase the engagement RPM, also it will Decrease the rate of Upshift (keep you in a "lower gear" longer) and Increase the rate of Downshift (Gear you down faster, when you are slowing down)

Slowing the engine RPM might be as easy as turning down the idle screw on the Carb, but if you need it to slow down more, you might have to fool with the Governor. That's VERY touchy, a little change makes a big difference, be carefull if you go this route.

As for the belt...... Depending on how the engine swap was done, you may want to try a little longer belt (If the new engine is slightly further forward than the stock engine.

RD

[eddieb1965]

Being new to Argo's you need to be firm and decisive on shifting the trans.You cannot be gentle or try to ease it in or all you will get is grinding.As RD said just set idle as low as possible ,I would think the Honda would use similar crankshaft position,if so your clutch should be in the correct location(belt tension).

[spookum]

The only reason you should have to shut the engine off is to get the Trans input shaft to stop spinning.
Is the engine idle set as low as you can get it? If the Primary Clutch is spinning too fast at an Idle, the clutch may be trying to engage. Also, if the Spring in the Primary Clutch is loosing it's strength, it will let the clutch engage at a lower than normal RPM. Lastly, if the belt is too short, Friction between the Clutch Shaft and the inner side of the belt will cause the belt to turn, which will spin your Secondary Clutch making it hard to shift.
You could tear the Primary Clutch out and put a new spring in it. There is also the option of putting a Shim under the Primary Spring to increase the spring tension. Personally, I would do both. A new spring, and a shim will increase the engagement RPM, also it will Decrease the rate of Upshift (keep you in a "lower gear" longer) and Increase the rate of Downshift (Gear you down faster, when you are slowing down)

Slowing the engine RPM might be as easy as turning down the idle screw on the Carb, but if you need it to slow down more, you might have to fool with the Governor. That's VERY touchy, a little change makes a big difference, be carefull if you go this route.

As for the belt...... Depending on how the engine swap was done, you may want to try a little longer belt (If the new engine is slightly further forward than the stock engine.

RD

And check clutch alighnment. If one clutch is offset from the other..... the clutch will be "grabbing" the belt and making the other clutch spin when it should not be. If it is stock argo clutches, they should only be an 1/8 inch off set. With the engine off, make sure that the belt isnt touching BOLTH sides of the clutch that comes off of the motor.

Does it have pinned axle shafts or splined ones? hydralic breaks? If no to bolth those questions... hmmm.. id almost get a diffrent argo... and the engine *should*be atleast 18 HP or more for moose hunting with tracks. IMHO

There is a Super cheap, poor boy way to fix it. Get a 1/2 inch thick chunk of HDP (or what ever plastic is handy) and tap it for a 3/4 inch bolt. Put the plastic up against the clutch, and drill a hole through the fire wall. Put 1 washer, a spring, and 1 more washer on the bolt. Insert it though the hole in the fire wall into the block of HDPE. Every time you need to shift, just PUsh on the bolt it will keep the secondary clutch from spinning and you should be able to shift...... i know pretty hoakey, but it works!

[teeko]

Check the condition of the primary. The spring may be broken. My primary on my 1970 argo had 3 small springs on the weights. One was broken and this would also cause the weight to advance the sheaves slightly causing the belt to drag. It may be as simple as replacing a broken spring. Also, when apart, lube everything. There may be some rust or cack (technical term) on the shaft preventing the clutch to return fully. Hope this helps.

[Terra]

Thanks for all your advice, looks like it's just some adjustments, maybe a belt, so no big deal.Not sure if it has splined shafts, or hydraulic brakes, but I hear you on that one, will check when (if) we drive down to take another look. We are thinking that the shifting problem might scare off other buyers, so we are going to sit and wait a while and then make a lower offer. Probably no big market around here until we get closer to hunting season. And if it sells, well we'll wait for another one. We still are thinking about buying a newer argo with more horsepower and all the improvements. Thanks again, Doug

[ARGOJIM]

There were 3 8x8's in the 80's Tecumseh's (TB) had manual brakes with long sticks and pinned axles, I/C's which had Kohler KT17 (KB) hydraulic brakes and long sticks with pinned axles and Magnums which had M18 Kohler (NKB), short sticks and keyed or splined axles, the later ones had a backrest and post 86 pop out firewall.

[KBSAK]

There were 3 8x8's in the 80's Tecumseh's (TB) had manual brakes with long sticks and pinned axles, I/C's which had Kohler KT17 (KB) hydraulic brakes and long sticks with pinned axles and Magnums which had M18 Kohler (NKB), short sticks and keyed or splined axles, the later ones had a backrest and post 86 pop out firewall.

I've got a short stick KB w/ KT17 & pinned axles.

[Terra]

So, instead of buying trouble, or more work we decided against the argo with the honda engine. Drove up to Edmonton last weekend and bought a 2010 Avenger HDI. It came from a rental fleet, the guy said they have 235 Argos.. I knew it was likely bag driven for most of it's 345 hours, but they gave me a copy of the maintenance records, and every time it returned from a rental ( even when it was nearly new with only 12 hours on it) they have a 40 point checklist they go over that includes the engine control module, the heads, and anything even remotely suspect gets replaced. Most of the time they rent just one machine, and if it goes out to the middle of nowhere, it had better come back. Thought it was better to buy it from the rental company myself than from a guy who buys it from them, raises the price by a few thousand and sells it saying it was his personal machine. Used the buyers checklist from here, and checked everything on the list. Koehler manual said compression should be 160, it was 150 on both, but it's kind of ignorant to get the hose threaded on, and not sure I had it tight to the o-ring, had to tighten it by just turning the hose. Lots of new bearings and all chains are good. All of the tires except one still had the nibs on them, so they must be nearly new (it had tracks on it, but they put them on another one). 4700 # new looking warn winch. First thing we took it out for a good long swim in the slough behind the yard, my son and i weren't sure what to expect when we drove from the shallows into where we knew it would float, but it bobbed right up and swam straight across. $7,500.00 plus the GST for a total of $7,875.00, so a fair bit of money left for repairs if it needs them, or maybe a set of tracks. Thanks for all your advice, and to who ever made up that buyers checklist
Doug

[guyfox]

For a 2010 Avenger. Sounds like you got a good deal on the machine. I am sure you will be happy with your new to you toy.

[spookum]

That is a heck of a good deal. Keep up with and go nuts in maitnence, and you will be teaching your great great grandsons to retreive dead moose with it