Avenger best vintage?

[SHOTGUN]

Have decided that the avenger 8x8 is the machine that will suit my needs the best, but I would like to hear from everyone the (real world) benefits of the admiral vs open diff style, and if they have been reliable. There is quite a large difference in prices (used) between 09's and down vs '10 and up. There is even like new frontiers for way cheaper than the hdi models. I would be mostly using the avenger in winter with tracks for getting firewood and plowing snow. Is the admiral worth the extra coin?

[North Country Tough]

Have decided that the avenger 8x8 is the machine that will suit my needs the best, but I would like to hear from everyone the (real world) benefits of the admiral vs open diff style, and if they have been reliable. There is quite a large difference in prices (used) between 09's and down vs '10 and up. There is even like new frontiers for way cheaper than the hdi models. I would be mostly using the avenger in winter with tracks for getting firewood and plowing snow. Is the admiral worth the extra coin?

Psst like asking what oil is best,Russel I own a first year Avenger and at present and have a pot load of hours on it has it been good, has it been dependable yes,have I drove a Admiral trans yes,do I think that the Admiral is a better trans well I don't know honestly it performs very well and I like the way the HDI handles its like power steering very nice is it complicated yes it looks it,is it worlds better than my Avenger or my previous Conquest,time will tell the original Argo tranny was pretty bullet proof and the Avenger trans had some teething issues but ended up a fine working unit I have zero complaints,I plow snow,dirt,rocks, pile firewood in for the cabin pull trailers boats out of the lake you name it got the rubbers tracks on(updated HDI axles)it has a fairly tuff life and has done real well,mind you the original axles didnt stand up to the rubber tracks broke the outer axle to wheel flange off but have been no issue since the axle upgrade.If you have had a Argo before and learned its quirts then a Avenger,Conquest,HDI are all very capable machines and will suit you well,we all would like the latest greatest but dont discount the the other units they are very capable.I also own a Max and Attex they all have their strong suits,my six wheel Max is a very agile and capable machine but the 8 wheel Avenger is a bush pickup truck and will haul the big loads as well as a crew of people,check out some of Rock Docs vids a Conquest that hauls a ton to his camp and that is pretty much the original style trans that is a open diff,he hauls thru some of the nastiest stuff around loaded like a freight train.Cheers NCT

[SHOTGUN]

Thanks for the reply, I was not trying to start a (what is the best machine ever) thread but more that I want to get an avenger, and would like to hear from people with seat time in admiral and conventional trannies to hear what are the key advantages of both so I can make as informed decision for my application as possible. If the admiral does not pose an advantage, I would gladly save thousands on an 09 or older. I have watched most of the video on the site but no video gives seat time experience, also what the true feel of each machine and how it handle each situation.

[North Country Tough]

Perhaps I overstated my thoughts,but have had seat time in all of the above and not to dis the Admiral trans it is the next logical step for the breed,personally my take is that the price of the HDI Admiral is substantial and I feel that the non Admiral trans units are every bit as capable to do the job that you want.NCT

[SHOTGUN]

So where are the key situations that either tranny(admiral vs open diff) would excel? I assume that low on the admiral with counter rotation would help in tight quarters, but the admiral in high sounds like it takes a wider turn without skidding. This is a couple examples that I could think of, but how much do these two really makes a diference I can not tell you because I dont have a chance to drive both. So I guess what I am asking is what are the biggest weaknesses and advantages of either tranny so I can make an educated guess at what will work best for me. Thanks

[JohnF]

This is an interesting engineering question. I know that you are trying to figure out when/if it is right for you to choose one technology over the other but it might help to consider when a designer/engineer/manufacturer would chose one technology over the other.

First, your answer: Do not choose a technology that will not perform the task you are going to ask of it. (Helpful? )

I agree with North and in fact might argue that an older conquest will do a superb job of meeting your needs.

Now back to engineering and a bit of history: Skid steering systems relate to tracked vehicles where the problem of moving heavy relative to the surface condition vehicles became an issue. It stands to reason the we can turn this vehicle if the track on one side is moving faster than the other and the open differential brakes system is easy and cheap to build. The down side is that the open differential balances torque so to slow down one side you have to eat an equivalent torque in the brake as is going to the side that is relatively faster.

The scenario is the power you are using to propel your vehicle forward in a straight line has to be tapped to make a turn. So, let's say you are driving a tank and you are WOT using all the speed you can to run away from a bad guy. So, all of your power is being converted to speed. You don't want to have to make a turn because this will necessarily, by the system design, mean you will slow down.

An engineering solution could be to limit top speed and carry an engine capable of the power to hit top speed and make a turn, but I'll let you explain to the tank crew why you "reserved" power that they could have used for speed on the straight.

The triple differential (and some others) solve this for tank crews as it doesn't consume power to make the turn.

So, why would a builder of a small skid steer vehicle choose one tech over the other? Cost is a real reason. Also consumer desire. We can calculate how well solutions fit the problem. For example, we know the gear ratios we've chosen, the weight of the vehicle performing its intended task, and the aerodynamics involved and might know that at sea level it takes 10.2 HP to move on the straight at top speed and 6.1 HP to execute some (decided) specific minimum turn so if the vehicle has 17 HP then the cheaper system will do just fine. We can even compute that for the elevations the vehicle will operate in requires maybe 22 HP at sea level.

As the variables change so may the tech choice. Maybe the vehicle and its task gets heavier. Maybe, like in the tank example, we really can't use power for turning. Maybe with the HP calculation we find that the size or fuel consumption of the engine that is in reserve costs too much. Basically, we would move to the triple differential type system when we no longer have budget in the design for the HP reserved for turning.

Is this getting long or what?!

Down side to the admiral transmission is that the turn radius is fixed. There are skid steer systems that don't consume power to turn and in effect have a variable turn radius but those are really complex and expensive. So one real difference that I imagine (I haven't driven an admiral transmission) you would notice is that the open differential system has a variable turn radius and the admiral doesn't. You can feather turns whereas with the admiral you have to switch between turn/not turn. (Imagine running a straight road on a slight side hill that cause a constant left turning tendency. The open differential driver will probably drag the right brake whereas the admiral driver will need to constantly call for a right turn. The admiral trip would be twitchier.)

[Following is my totally subjective quantification.]

So, I would think that for agility at speed the older transmission would work better. For agility at really slow speeds (low gear) the admiral wins. The higher in elevation you operate the more the admiral makes sense.

If you are going to plow snow at 5000 ft elevation or lower I believe that an older conquest with the G gear set would kick ...

Of course, having more available power means you can push a bigger pile of snow.

[EDIT] Oh yeah, there are other reasons for choosing one system over the other, one example is tendency to self steer, but I left them out because I don't think they matter for this discussion.

[john swenson]

i really enjoy reading these replies, especially when the mechanical and technical aspects are explained. i just have to read them a few times to fully understand. that's what is great about this forum. thanks johnboy va.

[SHOTGUN]

Thanks JohnF for more info. I do understand the designs and theory very well. What I would like to hear more of is key situations that users have experienced that really highlight strengths and weaknesses of each style of tranny and what was the overall net result. Some times the theory of operation makes a feature sound like a big deal when in reality it is not. That is why real world experiences in key situations with both systems really can tell how valuable features are. The side hill steering correction example is a good explanation of theory, but, is it really a big difference in reality? Only someone that has done it in both styles of tranny would know. So if anyone has experienced a situation or example where one tranny had exceled, that would help me the most make a decison of what is best for me. Thanks every one for the comments

[BlkJeep]

Great stuff!

[North Country Tough]

So where are the key situations that either tranny(admiral vs open diff) would excel? I assume that low on the admiral with counter rotation would help in tight quarters, but the admiral in high sounds like it takes a wider turn without skidding. This is a couple examples that I could think of, but how much do these two really makes a diference I can not tell you because I dont have a chance to drive both. So I guess what I am asking is what are the biggest weaknesses and advantages of either tranny so I can make an educated guess at what will work best for me. Thanks

The Admiral handles the Argo rubber tracks much easier and steers extremely well,the older style trans struggles a bit but the lower geared older trans does much better but not up to the Admiral,in deep mud both handle it well no huge difference that I could tell,feeding the machine thru a tight trail situation the older trans in my opinion is more predictable as far as turn in the Admiral in High range you got to pre think where you need to be and turn in perhaps earlier depending on the room needed,or go to low range,as far as the turning radius the Admiral in low is great but if you run a 8 wheeler you already pick lines that it will fit thru,as far as pulling again a well maintained older style IE:rotors and pads in good shape,brake fan operating properly,primary chains in adjustment will pull the plug out of the world same goes for the Admiral,what you are asking is a personal preference situation indeed I have drove both pulling small trail groomer,s on tracks loaded in the winter plowed my driveway hauled as much firewood as I could pile in,had four people and hunting gear in some nasty mud in the fall on tracks,did I see such a difference that I would pick one over the other one word answer no,resale value down the road I would say that the admiral will bring more,issues well clasp your hands and hope you never have a failure in the Admiral Trans very expensive repair,the older style parts are not cheap and failures have been rare but the cost to fix pales in comparison,the one thing I will add Shotgun is that experience behind the bars means worlds as I said been back loaded to the gill,s in some of the worst bog that Northern Ontario can dish out in the fall and a Bud of mine with a early Conquest on tracks gets to the same spots I do and that is the first generation trans with less ground clearance,I when and if it comes time to replace my Avenger would look at a Admiral for sure but I also watch the forum very closely to determine there dependability which means more to me than technology there where early issues that I have read mind you those machines where in a commercial situation that said I use mine hard so I kinda fit that,I now have the opportunity to have two close friends with Admirals so I will see where it goes.Cheers NCT

[SHOTGUN]

Thanks again NCT, your insight helps alot. I have tried to ask questions that eliminate personal preference and opinion as much as possible( I realize it is impossible) for two reasons. One is that if you have a pile of experience with any of these machines then I think the flaws and strengths between them are made much smaller because you know how to manipulate the machine much more for the situation, where as maybe a beginner would benefit more from the updated technology to handle the situation. The other is that as anyone builds experience and confidence in their machine they naturally feel that their machine is all they need or even that it is the best thing ever built (not accusing anybody just in general). The best way I could think of doing that is to hear various situations that both trannys were in and try to decifer what I think would be the most useful for me and the balance between years of experience and cost efectiveness of certian technology. Hope that makes sense, if anyone else has more examples it can only help me make a better decision

[Buzz]

Either transmission-type is very easy to drive and very easy to make perform, even for a novice. Both transmission types will go the same spots. Both machines will scrub their tires or tracks when turning. All avengers have handlebar steering. All require you to shift from "forward" to "reverse" frequently. Neither transmission style eliminates the quirks of a skid-steer type machine. Steering corrections are continually needed.
All vintages get you very similar HP ratings and the same tub/tire sizes. The only other must-have in my eyes (even if through attrition/normal part replacement on an older vintage) is the HD axles/outer bearings of the newer machines, simply for reliability and ease-of-maintenance when running tracks. The new style tires are also excellent, both within tracks and on their own and are worth having. Being as you can retrofit older machines with these upgrades, for me it would depend on what kind of "deal" you found to ultimately get a machine set up the way you wanted. Both machines will go the same places. Even EFI isn't a factor (for me anyway). Of the Avengers, I prefer the 700 avenger for simiplicity, ability to upgrade, and bang-for-the-buck. If set up correctly, never short on power and can tolerate questionable gasoline at times.

[SHOTGUN]

Thanks again, is there anything else that I should watch for in certain years of the Avengers? NCT stated that the tranny's had a little trouble in the earlier models, also I think there was an update to some gears in tranny that increased the amount of fingers(2007)????. I realize that propably most of the problems would have been sorted out by now on the 09 and older units. One more question, in the argo id list thread as soon as it hits the 2000's all it talks about is the plant and conquests is there a list of upgrades or change to the avenger over its pre admiral life?