Replacing the Old

[Tdubya23]

Hey Everyone,
I have been on the forums reading/learning for quite a while now and finally I have a question I can't find the answer for.

I am finally replacing my 1997 Response 8x8 this year. All and all it has been a good machine, but have had nothing but headaches with that briggs motor.
I am planning to purchase a new frontier in the next month or two. Which brings the big question, should I go liquid cooled or air?

I would assume that the Kohler motor is light years better than the briggs, can anyone confirm this?

I know that the liquid cooled is quite a bit more expensive than the air.

What is everybody's opinion?

Cheers
TW

[Deedeelin1]

B

[hydromike]

As long as the air cooled Kohler and Briggs engines are running, they're cooling. The machine doesn't have to be moving.

[Deedeelin1]

b

[capri302]

Hydro, I love learning. How are they cooled. Everything I ever owned that was air cooled had to be moving to stay cool. This is where you make me smarter.

They are fan cooled, that means the crankshaft spins a fan in the engine casing.
Free air engines like old sleds didn't have any cooling system.

[Deedeelin1]

b

[Lundtastic]

Liquid is also quieter vs. Air cooled. I can vouch for that as my conquest has the kawi liquid cooled and my john deere lawn tractor with the same kawi engine is way louder and air cooled. If you're from a naturally warm climate, liquid would be the way to go.

[philipatmaxfour]

replacing the old

Hi TW, If you are buying a new Frontier,they are only available with air cooled Kohler engines. Argo have had good luck with liquid cooled Kohler engines in their Avenger models since 2004 and are now using only kohler engines to my knowledge. The optional hood cooling fan is a good idea with the Admiral tranny in warmer climates. Guys like Mighty Max who are AATV committed and post excellent videos won,t have to ride the southern marshes with the hood off, I hope.

[Noel Woods]

I think any Kohler engine is superior to the B&S 23HP engine. the smaller 16,18,20hp B&S engines I never had problems with. I actually have a 30hp B&S big block in an experimental machine I'm fiddling with and no problems with it. The 23hp is a totally different story. They obviously were not designed for operation in a hot environment, run too lean, and overheat, running with the hood off improves things but does not fix the issue. The B&S requires the valves to be adjusted every 100hours or so (if you are lucky to get that far). I've actually melted two fuel pumps, and am on my third starter. I do not believe the quality is there for that particular engine. It looks like B&S took the same cooling fan from the smaller engines and used it on the 23hp.

Kohlers have always been reliable for me, I have a lawn tractor with a 25 Command engine with 600 hours, that runs perfect. I have two 20hp Kohlers, one in a Max2 the other a Max4, both of which perform perfectly with several hundred hours, no over heating, no popping, no issues.

As far as air or liquid cooled goes, that's a personal choice, I only have one liquid cooled engine in the amphib fleet and its awesome, quiet, fuel efficient, no issues. I'll probably try the new Kohler EFI Air cooled engine in the near future, and will give feedback on how it performs.

[Supermag]

One of my hunting partners has a 2008 frontier 8x8 with the Briggs 23 hp engine. His Argo now has about 250 hours and is running strong. Last fall he pulled out an avenger 700 with a blown transmission. The frontier was loaded with a quartered up bull moose, coolers, one passenger and their gear. It was 23 kms back to the trucks through some wet muskeg and nasty terrain. It was late November and temperature was about 0 degrees Celsius. He has not had many issues with that engine. He loves the fact that he can start it up with the pull cord in the event of a dead battery. The liquid cooled engines offer more power than the fan cooled but it comes at a price. I would not hesitate to go with the frontier fan cooled engine based on seeing what that 2008 has done. On the same token, horse power is nice to have.

Good luck with your search.

Dave

[Planter Bob]

The 23HP Vanguard is a fine engine, and will perform especially well with synthetic oil, changed per the schedule. I'm an air-cooled proponent. Liquid-cooled is great on a road vehicle, where I'm close to civilization, but when I'm 50 miles in the bush here in Alaska, I like the idea of my cooling system being nothing more than a fan attached to the crankshaft of my engine. One less system to fail/worry about.

[Noel Woods]

I think that anywhere south of the Mason Dixon line, a person would be wise to stay away from the B&S 23HP. In temperatures outside less than 70 degrees mine ran fine, above that, the problems kicked in.

I now have a new frontier with the efi motor, its perfection. Days of running in hot conditions and no issues with the optional hood fan, I think its the way to go, and efi means no more choke. Did I mention power? Its got plenty and always had reserve power as well. The Kohler is rated 23hp, but its really like a 27hp motor.
The Kohler doesn't have a back-up rewind starter, that's because its a Kohler, the B&S needs one, because the starters on the Briggs will fail with moderate usage. Every Briggs motor I have ever owned has gone through multiple starters. I've only replaced the starter in a 1999 Max4 with a 20hp Kohler. 7 or so B&S starters compared to 1 Kohler.

I don't worry about not having a back-up pull start, I carry a capacitor jump box with me now, its less than the size of a cigar box but will jump a full sized truck.

[Supermag]

Most of the engines that power our machines were not originally designed to be installed in an atv. They were built to power industrial equipment and operate at a high rpm. Water pumps, lawn tractors, generators, wood chippers, and any other self contained gas powered equipment. These engines are generally fired up, given a few minutes to warm up, then set at W.O.T. The charging systems were designed for this as was the cooling system. The higher the rpm, the faster the cooling fan runs. We had a contractor come to the mine i work at to fuse 10" diameter ploy pipe. The fusion unit used a 23hp b&s engine to power the hydraulics. They had 1450 hours on the engine and the only issues they had was the starter. We run our engines at a wide range of r.p.m. Most industrial applications, the engine is sitting in a free air atmosphere, not closed off under a hood.
I would think that a hood scoop and hood fan would help the Briggs engine with its heat issues. As for the starters.... The recoil is there. By the way, if you ever try to rip start one of these at -20 Celsius, you had better have a good grip.
Sorry for the thread drift. As far as air cooled vs. liquid cooled I would not hesitate to invest in an air cooled engine as most of my time in my Argo is in the fall and in low range. I run tracks 100% of the time and like to keep my rpm high. Liquid cooled engines are more versatile as they control their operating temperature thermostatically, run quieter, and you have the option of higher horse power. If you wanted to ad some accessories, the avenger models have an optional alternator kit.
Rather than trying to find out wich one is better than the other, gather information both pro and con on both applications and then decide which is best suited for what you want it to do.
This is only my opinion.

Dave