Hdi in water with current

[cdover73]

So I have had my hdi long enough to be able to see mostly what it's capable of, what it doesn't like, and what to stay the heck away from! I mentioned in another post about how I took it into the edge of a slow moving river and was instantly swept into the current with almost no control over where it went once it started swimming. That event turned out okay as I was able to get it back to the beach without hitting the log jam that was a few more yards downriver. Lesson learned...almost...

The other day I spent time with my mom and took her to a local creek. Now this is VERY different from the river I mentioned. It was only about 3' deep at the deepest and not very wide, maybe 50' at the widest. There were rock bars that stuck out everywhere the water got ankle deep. I first walked the course to make sure the current wasn't strong and decided to try a section for a short distance to the next rock bar then turn around and start back. It made it down fine. Very calm with no issues at all. It turned where I pointed it and responded to throttle all the way.

When I got to the rock bar and decided to turn around, the 'fun' began. With the rock bar being partial sand and completely saturated, the tires started to cut ruts. I couldn't turn at all and could not get pointed back the way I came. The tires were almost 'dry' but just kept digging like I was in mud. I would cut ruts until I got to a point that I had to back up and start over. Each time it would follow the same path. Eventually, I got it turned enough to start back up the shallow stretch. Once it started floating it would move forward, but it kept wanting to dart around with the current so I had to keep giving input to keep it headed in the right direction. The swim was slow once fully floating. Like it was having a hard time keeping up, but the current was barely visible. I ended up having to get out and walk beside it to push the nose around and keep it going where I wanted. There was no load on it, and my mom was the only passenger.

I eventually got it back and out and everything turned out fine. But then, I get on Youtube and search Argos on water and saw people doing things in rivers that I cannot get mine to do! I even saw one video where two guys were going down literally white water rapids and could come out at any point he wanted!! How???!!! What am I doing wrong?? I know I'm still a novice, but why can't I figure out what these guys are doing? I have come to the conclusion that the only way I will be able to handle swimming in ANY current would be to have an outboard or trolling motor!

Also, would the Adair Pro Series tracks have solved all my problems? I was going to get them at first, but now that I have seen what it goes through with just tires I don't think I need them. But will they give me better control in water, or will it be worse or the same?

I may try to go back and take a Go-Pro video of what I'm talking about and try to figure out how to post it. There is no way I would dare take a chance in rapids when I can't get it to perform in the smallest current possible. Btw, it does fine in calm water such as a pond or small lake. It's just the current issues that I am fighting.

Thanks,

cdover73

[plott hound]

first time tried mine in a big beaver pond things went great,untill the wind picked up.suddenly I was 200 yards down the pond and had to wait until the wind died down so I could return to the landing.have not and will not try it in water with any current.i figure to keep myself out of any trouble I will keep a mindset that my HDI is a big atv with the same capabilities.

[dirtdobber]

From what I can gather from this wonderful website is that tires are key. Both tread type and tread direction. The more solid, deep tread you have which is pointed in a direction so that it gathers the water, rather than sheds the water, seems to get better reviews in terms of swimming performance. Also, the depth at which your machine floats seems to matter also. If the machine floats deep enough such that nearly the whole tire is under water, then the tire works against itself.

Post more info on your tire set up.

[Noel Woods]

The old adage: "turn around don't drown" also applies to amphibs. The deal is a little current or a little wind throws control out of whack. I think when you get a few hours under your belt, you'll find that they are easy to handle.
Try swimming initially in calm ponds and you will get to know the machine. I can't tell you how many times I've gone into a river or a creek that appeared calm and then only some distance downriver wished I'd of stayed out.

[Dozerlarry]

remember all the news clips you see on TV about vehicles being carried away in a flash flood situation. I realize none of us would try that but it does illustrate the power of water. Recently, in Texas, an army truck was swept away and some people drowned. These are all heavier and more powerful than what we drive. I run mine in ponds, and ditches and creeks that are barely moving. If you have an outboard mounted on the back you can probably go anywhere you want.

[cdover73]

I am running the stock Argo tires with the Chevron pattern mounted with the cup or chevron pointing backwards. I know they are mounted properly because it moves very well in calm water going forward but not so well in reverse as the tires are as someone said 'shedding' the water when going backwards. They are also brand new (I have only had the Argo for about a month now with absolutely no asphalt driving other than the parking lot where I picked it up), so no wear of the treads.

I am not interested in using the Argo as a full time amphib, but I am a little concerned about how very slow current makes it uncontrollable. The answers I have seen so far gives me quite a few 'aha' moments. First, I own boats and have been around the water in ponds, lakes, creeks, and rivers my whole life (hell, I live in South Louisiana). I also owned a heavy equipment company and grew up around machinery, a lot of which were skid steer machines, so I would think I'm not having as hard of a time learning how to control the Argo as someone who has never experienced any of that before(very similar to a 'Bobcat' skid steer machine). I am also confident in my ability to maneuver a watercraft in almost any given situation, and the Argo does control very similar in calm water to any small water boat I have operated (you have to anticipate where you are drifting and make adjustments before you get there). I did not consider the buoyancy as a factor though! I am around 275 lbs and with ice chest, full fuel, and only 3psi in the tires, I am sure they are completely submerged. They have no choice but fight against themselves with one side wanting to paddle and climb and the other wanting to pull itself deeper in the water. Makes perfect sense once it's pointed out, just didn't think of it. Duh!!

The video I saw where they were going down rapids may have been misleading as I don't know how deep the water was. They very well may have been swimming and crawling at the same time which would have made it more controllable.

I am sill waiting for my racks to come in. Once they are mounted I will be able to fab a trolling motor mount. I don't need the Argo to navigate waterways all the time, but do plan to use it as a jon boat for when I go pond jumping for largemouth bass around the house. The idea of driving to the ponds I have access to and not have to drag a 200 lb boat full of fishing gear and batteries down to the water then back out again and load it into my truck is what I bought the Argo for. I can drive down, drive in, troll around and fish, drive out, and drive home...perfecto!!! My concern was with its ability, or lack thereof, that I have experienced already. I'm still in the phase of figuring out what my limits are, but I just thought it would do better than what I'm seeing. But these answers help make sense of why I'm struggling with it, and I give my appreciation for all your help.

Thanks,

cdover73

[ARGOJIM]

If you plan on being in the water a bit then you've answered your own question, trolling motor at the least. Consider building a small (removable) pontoon off the front to help even out the machine in the water, it has been my plan for the post 2007 machines for some time as an experiment to raise the front tires to where they used to be but I still run a 2000 regular.

[Noel Woods]

Cdover73:
The biggest difference in swimming revolves around psi in the tires, try going up to 5psi and recheck the ability of the machine. As you said, you are a big guy, so some additional air in the tires will make a huge difference. What is the orientation of your tires?

[cdover73]

Cdover73:
The biggest difference in swimming revolves around psi in the tires, try going up to 5psi and recheck the ability of the machine. As you said, you are a big guy, so some additional air in the tires will make a huge difference. What is the orientation of your tires?

The tires are set up to what the manual suggested as far as the biggest in 2nd position, next in the 3rd, etc, etc. The dealer made sure of that. I have always ran at 5 psi, it was a typo on my part that I said 3psi. I have thought about going up to 7, but I don't wanna cause other problems like bounce and overstressing the treads.

I do like your idea about the pontoon. I immediately pictured a discarded beer keg with a bracket welded on that could pin in an upper and lower location to the front bumper/brush guard. Definitely do-able!

At least what I'm hearing isn't so much that I can't get it to do what I thought it should. I'm hearing that others are having the same issues so it makes me feel better that I am on a familiar tract with y'all. If I was hearing "well mine does fine" then I would still have concerns that I was doing something wrong. I know what to stay out of and am learning what to expect and not expect of it.

I do still have the question about the addition of tracks. I like the Adairs so would adding them help this situation, make it worse, or be the same? I don't want to add them unless I could actually justify them. I can go through just about anything I would ever want to go through with ease. Unless they paddle better I don't see where this would justify the extra money. At the worst end, they would probably slow me down some and cause more wear and tear on the machine in the long run. So should I be considering them or forget them at this point??? Honest opinions are welcome here. Nothing to hold anybody to...

Thanks,

[cdover73]

This is what I have compared to what I almost bought. The hdi vs the Scout. I went with the bigger motor and Admiral tranny over creature comfort and bells and whistles. I like practical and it never hurts to add in just a little more power just in case it's ever needed. The trailer is the 18' utility/tractor trailer we used to bring the Argo and a zero turn to our camp so we could mow. I couldn't get the truck past a bad spot in the road so I unloaded the Argo and hooked the trailer to it to pull the mower the 1.7 miles to the camp. It never grunted, but the picture doesn't do justice.

HDItn.jpgScout2tn.jpg

Also, the tracks on the Scout are the same ones I would buy if I added them to my hdi...

This is the same trailer with my Argo and Brute Force loaded for Tower Trax.
HDI1tn.jpg

[Noel Woods]

I believe the Adair tracks are the best single option for an Argo. Yes, they swim, don't expect outboard type speeds but I do believe the machines that I owned with Adair tracks swam better than just with tires. As with anything, weight does add to wear and tear. I used to cross a creek with several silt banks hidden below the water, the machines with tires only struggled and often bogged in the silt, the ones with tracks never missed a beat and just made it through like it was nothing. The main deal with tracks is that you don't have to struggle with locking one side or the other to turn, the tracks do all the work and making turns is super easy.

[ARGOJIM]

Just a quick question as to water use, are you in low range ? If not try that first, water speed will be hurt but control should be much better when afloat.

[Fox Valley Argo Sales]

I believe the Adair tracks are the best single option for an Argo. Yes, they swim, don't expect outboard type speeds but I do believe the machines that I owned with Adair tracks swam better than just with tires. As with anything, weight does add to wear and tear. I used to cross a creek with several silt banks hidden below the water, the machines with tires only struggled and often bogged in the silt, the ones with tracks never missed a beat and just made it through like it was nothing. The main deal with tracks is that you don't have to struggle with locking one side or the other to turn, the tracks do all the work and making turns is super easy.

I agree 100% what Noel has to say here. The advantages far outweigh the disadvantages with a set of adairs,for example, you never would have had a hard time getting up on the sandbar in the river.With the right set of adair tracks,you are able to milk all the preformance out of your unit,and i see this time,and time,and time again when I take out clients for a test run in the muck,and they think I'm trying to make an extra buck by selling the tracks.The first thing I load is the pull strap,and then my knee boots,as i know in just a few min. I will be pulling out the untracked unit.
Air presure has very little to do with swimming,but as ARGOJIM mentioned,going in low will help,as you loose speed when you run the tires too fast in water,as now the tires are cavitating,or pushing air instead of water.Also,to get an argo to turn in water,you need to apply body english,lots of it,and at 275lbs.this will be a huge advantage for you.Lean to one side so the water is right up to the bottom of the bumper,and you will be surprised at how it turns.
Experience is needed when dealing with currant,as this is the easiest way to get in lots of trouble if you don't know your limitations in currant.

[mightymaxIV]

Hey cdover, Argos, streams, rivers, moving currents, or what ever do not get along. My advice is to stay away from moving water, as you and I have found on many occasions moving water or current can get you in very big trouble. Lakes and pounds with the 25" tires are a piece of cake. Give the machine gas a point it in the right direction.
More air in the tires equals better water speed. I like to carry a plug in electric pump on the trail in case I need to change air pressure or have other issues.

If you buy a set of Adair tracks you will find that your machine gains over 100% mobility and that your HDI suddenly becomes a machine that will take you through mud holes that no else would dare try and a Adair equipped HDI will make it look very easy!! Watch the video and I pretty sure sure you will see what I am talking about.

My caution here, Adair tracks swim but not fast, about 1 1/2 mph to 2 mph depending on conditions and the best way to turn the machine in water is not to steer but to turn by shifting your weight.

My advice: stay away from moving water and keep to the ponds and lakes. If you are considering Adair Pro series tracks you will find that they will change a capable Argo into an absolute unstoppable beast. As for me, I am on my forth machine with Adair tracks and I will not run an Argo with out them.

[cdover73]

I didnt have any problems getting back on the sandbar. It was a gentle, almost flat slope straight into water. My problem, and the thing that perplexes me when I read that people are swimming UPstream against the current, is wondering how the heck!??? Mine will not swim upstream at all if it is fully floating. I think I found my answer is to just stay away from current like most of you have said. Maybe with an outboard, but I still dont know if I would trust it. But its not critical for me to ever go into current so its an easy fix.

I see another post discussing the same issue but wanting to know if tracks would help swim better. We have discussed that here too in detail. I think im gonna go ahead and buy the tracks just to have but not run all the time. If I know im going somewhere questionable I will put them on. My concern with tracks is how much wear and tear they cause. If I can go say 10 years with 'x' amount of maintenance with just tires, then how many years with tracks to do the same 'x' amount of maint? 8 yrs?? I know they stress the axle bearings. Do they also slow the Argo down, cause binding and chain wind up more easily, wear the tires quicker, etc?? Also, do the Adairs have a tendency to walk out of them? All questions im currently researching before I make a final decision. But no doubt they would turn it into a beast!

And before anyone wastes time explaining, I do understand tire size and position placement and the importance of proper air pressure when running them. Im asking more about wear and tear and lo ngevity if I do all the maintenance properly with vs without tracks.