Idler Chain Upper Sprocket Replacement

[Zircon]

The left upper sprocket of my idler chain ... the one on the brake disk ... is worn. When I replace it, is it advisable to replace the idler chain on that side, too? Also, would it be advisable to replace the right side disk brake sprocket and chain at the same time ... even though it might not be worn as much. I was wondering how a new sprocket and chain on one side might affect the adjustment tension if I leave the old one on the right side.

I notice the teeth on the lower sprocket on the left side has some wear as well. How hard is it to replace that one? Also, I'm pretty sure I might have to remove the clutch as well to get that disk brake off (maybe driven and drive to make it easier) so how how much are all the nuts torqued down ... on clutch and disk brake?

I've edited but can't seem to get the word 'socket' changed to 'sprocket' in the Thread title. Sorry for any confusion that may cause.

[curtisbyrne]

believe it or not the sprocket is on there permanently to the rotor. you can size the chain up yourself... was the sprocket worn due to improper tightness of the chain on the sprocket? yes you need to remove secondary clutch and the tranny mount. your best bet is to download the manuals here on the site and they will help you some lot. just ask anything here if you still need help.

[msafi65]

I recommend replacing both primary chains at once. Wit a worn one it is very hard to get even adjustment. Both chains have to come off to remove either rotor. I have an old wood splitting wedge and use it to hold the Power pack up high enough to pull rotors. The mount bolts for brake calipers are accessed through holes in the rotor. Removing the jackshafts isn't much fun but that's how the lower sprockets come out. Curtis is right about the shop manual being a good source for these repairs , pics and torque specs included.

[Zircon]

Yes, Curtis, I'm aware that the sprocket is permanently attached to the brake disk. The wear happened because the chains were too loose ... as far as I can figure. The manuals I've checked on this site don't seem to mention the Avenger anywhere, but this gives a good parts breakdown: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6d...MyNVAtTlk/view
I guess I won't need to remove the brake lines when removing the calipers? If I did, I guess I'd need some new copper washers ordered. By the way msafi65, I'm going to have to replace the brake disk on the right side anyway. Checked it today ... after a long drive and walk ... and the sprocket teeth are worn to a razor point!!! So, I'm going to need two disks, two idler chains, some anti-seize compound, a wedge or pry bar, and tools of course. Problem is, I'm dead in the water miles from home. Anyhow, how much you bet the local dealer is not going to have the parts? I'll be mighty surprised if he does.

[curtisbyrne]

yup,you got to keep up on the tightness of those idler chains.

[msafi65]

A couple questions ,are you broken down in the trees and do you have a winch? the reason I ask is that its almost impossible to run the chains around the jackshaft sprockets without moving the vehicle or lifting one side to roll the track. If you are in the trees and have a winch, or take a hand winch, you can pull from a tree to the frame in front of the seat and raise one side at a time. as far as the calipers go be sure to take alllen wrenchs or better yet hex drive sockets. The calipers are held on by allen head cap screws. (I think 5/16 somebody step in here on this, he's done if he cant get calipers off) When you get your new rotors make up 2 blocks of wood 1"x2"x the thickness of new rotors3/8"?? As the calipers are pulled off the rotor install these blocks to hold pistons in the calipers. This greatly reduces the chance of getting air in the brake system. Take extra DOT5 fluid in case. Take a couple big pry bars. If the clutch and rotors come off easy its not to bad a job. If they are bad stuck the pry bars are a must. Take a hand held LP torch to heat sprocket area on rotors. If you have to pry the clutch off place something between the input seal and your bar .A piece of flat steel or something to get a good lever on the clutch without damaging the seal. if you have a jaw type puller available that may grab onto what's left of the sprockets take it . Take a couple 3/8 fine bolts about 1 inch long and nuts to place in the end of the output shafts for the puller or to hit with a hammer while prying out on the rotor. About all I can think of now is be sure you have the big wrenchs/sockets for the powerpack bolts. I don't envy you doing this one in the field. hope all goes well.

[Zircon]

msafi65 I really appreciate your taking the time to write such a detailed comment. Thanks! To answer some of your questions: Winch? Yes. Trees? No. I just uploaded a few photos to show you where it's sitting waiting for repairs. We had just come down out of those mountains in the background when it decided it wanted a rest. Not to worry, though. When I go on one of these trips, I go prepared. The back compartment is filled with gear and if you check my photos, you'll see I have that compartment fitted with a padded cover that I can sleep on if need be. On top of that cover sits two WalMart storage containers that contain more gear ... one for food, water, cooking utensils, etc ... the other for all my camera gear, Nikon and lenses, small tripod, GoPro's, blanket, etc ... and sometimes my kite gear is thrown in on top of that cover, too. Down below, one of the things that never leaves the box is a jack from one of my old cars ... Chevy Caprice, I think. To level off those recessed areas in the bottom pan I carry some short pieces of 2x8 and 2x4 ... also a couple of short pieces of 4x4 to level off the piece I use to make the bed when I need it. When I go back I will be taking some extra pieces of 4x4, a few small junks of 6x6, and a few pieces of 3/4 plywood for a base and I'll jack it up so its off the ground ... on both sides. Besides the jack some of the other things down there are: a small tent, spare gas, shovel, tarps, rope, one of those storage cells from WalMart that you can use to boost a battery or run a trouble light if need be, axe, bag of tools, Coleman stove, snowshoes (in season) and sometimes (but not this trip because there are no trees up there) a chain saw and gas ... and sometimes a Coleman lantern. Yes, I do go prepared. :-)

The photos you see here were taken the day after we broke down ... walked back in to size up what I was going to need to repair the thing. Decided I definitely needed two brake disks (rotors) and two idler chains. And tools of course. Now as I said, I always carry a full complement of tools, 1/2 inch and 3/8 ratchets and sockets, vice grips, screwdrivers, etc, etc ... and a pretty neat torque wrench from JC Whitney that can use 1/2 or 3/8 sockets. But I wasn't to about to leave anything valuable laying around for any potential human vultures to scavenge ... usually no one around this area, but you never know. So the day it broke down, I lugged everything out ... winch, tools, battery ... and spare battery from WalMart, Coleman stove, and the two containers (food and camera gear) ... pretty near everything that wasn't bolted down. :-) I did leave the jack, though. Took two trips ... pulling the two containers lined up end to end and laid on a folded up tarp that I was pulling with rope that I had attached to it. The rope was like a harness that went behind my neck and under my arms. My wife said I reminded her of a horse pulling a sled. I thought about those Antarctic explorers pulling their gear when the dogs gave out. :-)

Anyway, today I checked with the dealer in St. John's and, just as I expected, no parts! Two or three weeks. My lovely beast sitting out there for three weeks! Yikes! Checked the dealer in Stephenville ... only 50 miles away ... and, wonder of wonders! He had both the rotors and idler chains! I couldn't believe it! And this time actually cheaper than the main dealer in the capital city ... St. John's! Drove out and purchased it. Picked up a spare belt, too. Luck was changing. Maybe. Too late to make the trek back out to the Argo today. So got everything together for tomorrow. Checked the forecast. Blizzard ... snow and high winds tomorrow :-( so, Wednesday or Thursday now.

We had three boys ... long grown and gone away from home now now ... but I remembered one of their old toboggans was down in the lower level of my shed, so I dug it out. That'll make carting back the things I need just a little easier.

Printed off the appropriate parts of those manuals that I thought I might need and I'll take them with me, too. However, as I said, they don't seem to be very Avenger specific. Definitely no mention of any Allen head cap screws on those calipers. If you check page BR-10 in the Argo manual ... Brake System ... It describes(and pictures) a hex head mounting bolt that secures the caliper to the transmission housing and you get at it by lining up the hole in the brake disk ( rotor) with the hex head bolt. So, definitely thanks for the heads up about the Allan head cap screws ... and the 1" x 2" x 3/8" blocks, and the brake fluid. I have a puller that I purchased years and years ago to pull the steering wheel on a '68 Chevelle. Hadn't been used since. But I did chuck it in the tool kit today ... so that suggestion about the 3/8" fine bolts was great, too! Definitely wouldn't have thought of that one! Picked up some Anti-seize compound and some blue Loc-title from NAPA today, too. That store is fast becoming one of my favourite! Always got what you need and the staff are fantastic.

So, I'll get at it in a few days. I'll keep you posted. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the bearings in the idler shaft didn't sustain any damage. Anyway, my objective is to get it home out of the wilderness. Maybe then I might tackle that lower idler chain sprocket.

Thanks again msafi65!

[msafi65]

One more thing, there are washers under the head of the hex bolts holding the calipers. They don't fit through the holes in the rotors and fall off. Just put your hand below the caliper when removing each bolt and catch them. If napa has 3/8 SAE flat washers get some. They seem to hit the bottom of an Argo and just disappear. Sounds like you are pretty well covered for tools. You would be suprised how many people walk out because they didn't have a spare belt or master link. Good luck

[ARGOJIM]

If it didn't glean the teeth off and they are just thin adjusting the chain tightness could be enough to get you to the trailer. When the chains are loose enough they can actually jump teeth making a terrible racket. Should you be able to limp it out, smooth wide turns and straight lines become very friendly as opposed to any type of jerking turns which could lead to the final gleaning.

[ARGOJIM]

Just checking in, hoping all went well had you gone after the machine.

[Zircon]

Tried your suggestion on Wednesday, ARGOJIM ... no dice! Got belt off, got driven clutch off ... came off real easy ... guess someone used anti-seize. Jacked it up. Took off one idler chain. Ran out of daylight ... came home. Yesterday, Thursday, was stormy ...didn't go out. Went back this afternoon ... after going to NAPA this morning to pick up some Hex head sockets for my 1/2 drive torque wrench and bought two: 5/16 and 3/8. Tried to jack it up farther so I could move the track on the left side to get the other idler chain in position to remove it. Jack broke ... spring!!! The middle of the track was sitting on frozen ground ... so had to try to beat that away with shovel and pry bar (too lazy to walk back to the pickup to get the truck jack). Finally did beat it out of there ... and then it moved like silk ... could move it with a couple of fingers even while I was standing there looking at the idler chain. Got the chain off. Those damn little cotter pins!!! Took off the caliper ... It was the 5/16 hex head socket that was needed. Caught the washers with a magnet on an extendible arm. Slipped my little block of wood between the pads. 1"x2"x 1/4 ". Took the nut off the brake disk(rotor). Disk slipped off real easy! Guess someone had used anti-seize compound again. No pry bars or pullers needed! Had to raise the back end of the power pack so that it would clear the bottom sprocket, though. Was running out of daylight by then, so packed up and came home. A good half days work! Very cold working, though. Fingers just about froze! -11 or -12 degrees Celsius! Will see if I can upload a photo of the brake disk later ... Sprocket worn down to nubs!

Next time I go back, I have to remove the other caliper and brake disk. Then I'll be ready to reassemble everything. Will keep you posted.

*** Put the photos in a new album entitled Repairs In The Field

[ARGOJIM]

Well looking at your pictures the teeth are not worn but are gleaned down to nubs, see why the tension wouldn't work. Luckily for you the cold temperatures are aiding in the disassembly as metal shrinks the colder it is, though unluckily for you yourself.

Glad things are working out for you.

[Zircon]

Finished the job this afternoon and brought baby home.

Here's how I'd rate the parts of the job:

Removing drive belt ... Moderately difficult
Removing clutch ... Easy
Removing calipers ... Easy. Except took off the passenger side first and then raised power pack to remove the brake disk. Then when I went to remove the other caliper, I forgot it was still raised and wondered why the heck it wouldn't come off. When I lowered the power pack, everything was good.
Removing Brake Disks ... Easy ... Raising power pack to get them off was a pain.
Removing Idler Chains ... Simple ... except for the damn tiny cotter pins.
Replacing new brake disks ... Easy
Replacing calipers ... Easy once they were fitted over the new disks
Replacing the new chains ... Now that was a bi*ch! Definitely the hardest part. Not putting the cotter pins in ... but that wasn't exactly fun either. No, getting those new connecting links in ... Not because I couldn't get the ends together ... I made a tool by grounding down a pair of vice grips ... and that worked perfectly! Finding a place to get that link in ... that was the problem. Couldn't do it on the bottom ... tool I made had no room. Half way up ... forget about it! How did I do it? Lined up the ends of the chain with one of the big holes in the brake disk and pushed the link through there.
Replacing clutch ... Easy
Replacing belt ... Easy ... when I sat in and finished pushing it down with my foot. Piece of cakes then.

Hardest part of doing this in the field? Bitterly cold weather. -18C yesterday with the wind chill. And lugging everything in on a toboggan. Needed lots of wood to help jack it up. But I look on the bright side ... no black flies or mosquitoes. :-)

Put a few photos in my album Repairs In The Field if you are interested. Need help doing this anytime? Just let me know. And I certainly have to thank msafi65 for his great suggestions!!!

[ARGOJIM]

Do those lower sprockets before you head off again.

[Zircon]

I was planning on replacing it, ARGOJIM ... Just not right now. It's prime time for backcountry travel in the next two to three weeks. I just uploaded a close-up shot of the lower sprocket on the passenger side. What do you all think? Can it wait awhile?