My first Argo configuration advice and questions.

[Sparx]

Track tuners cause a LOT of excessive wear and tear on the sprockets and chains, they do more harm to the vehicle than good. Track tuners are especially not recommend if you think of putting the argo under even a very small load. The power is not divided to all 8 wheel but just 4 wheels which can cause axles to warped /snap or chains to snap and I've even seen frames to break/warp. Just set up your tracks like they are supposed to be and you will never have a problem. By the way track set up should be going from front to rear 5-7-7-6 PSI and Smallest-Largest-SecondLargest-SecondSmallest.... maybe that's why some guys on here are having some chain wind up issues... the Argo rubber tracks are the best and just as expensive as the other quality tracks but can also easily get parts and service them.

Wow, I'd be cautious of this guys' advice. Sounds very biased! I've owned both rubber tracks and Escargo with the tuners and wouldn't go without. Super reliable and actually do the opposite to what this guy claims in regards to wear and tear. Rubber tracks might be the best in the snow but fall very short in many other areas. They are very difficult to turn in high traction grassy surfaces which actually cause more wear and tear as a result in the drive train he is claiming from the track tuners?
Everything he is claiming sounds straight from an Argo book and a common distributor or Argo salesperson comment I hear from dealerships that know nothing about aftermarket Argo parts like track tuners.
It's like going out and saying I've seen more failures from Argo spacers and stud extensions because it's Argo parts because of improper install and upkeep. Everything fails if not properly installed and maintained, and yeah you can get that with anything. No doubt I'm sure you can still break parts with track tuners, not denying that, but to say they are junk?
With Rubber tracks and track tuners I found you had to be spot on track tension in wet environments or they would slip. So get your crap together and add some air to the tires or pull out the steel track spacer. I've seen way too many rubber tracks setup loose with these metal track spacers left in.
With the steel tracks this is nowhere near an issue, basically impossible to spin in the tracks without tearing a lug off. I should know, I did this in a special circumstance I don't blame the tracks one bit for.
There seems to be some hate for track tuners and very rarely have I ever seen it come from someone who's used them. Most come from Argo dealers who blamed any damage found on them, I personally know the one dealer I deal with who frowns against them as well. First hand experience from many with thousands of miles using track tuners in extreme environments turning heavy metal tracks has proven extremely drastic positive results. Funny how that works out? I'm not even sponsored, I just like to tell things the way they are. My chains look brand new by the way, not twisted, worn out and mangled? No bent frames, that's from overspeed abuse, not overtorquing one drive wheel. You would swear an Argo would have to have over 100hp to do that and snap/wear chains in that aspect. Coming on here saying stuff like that with only 7 posts sure seems suspicious. It would be the first time I've ever heard such drastic damage with no visual proof caused by track tuners that would be the opposite to the majority findings on this forum.

[Buzz]

your track only turns relative to the speed of the corner tires. Any variation in circumference of the center tires is felt directly as *increased* load that the machine is forced to overcome, felt primarily by the center chains and the idler chains *at all times* if track tuners are not used. This resistance must be overcome 24/7 .... prior to the corner tires being driven and ultimately driving the track.

*with track tuners*
all axles, chains, and sprockets remain driven and load is transferred on the entirety of the frame.
The power-suck or braking effect of center-tire resistance (and additional tire wear, fuel burn, engine load, center chain stretch)...all goes away.
Anyone who dirt-shoots track tuners does not understand how to propertly set up their machine. The tuners are fantastic devices.

I can't tell you how many times I've seen broken axles and prematurely stretched chains when track tuners are NOT used with a supposed "proper rubber track set-up"
That's just the beginning of the problems
Also, the beadlock reversible rim option is designed especially for track use and works very well. Flipping the rim does not give an exact 2.5" difference in spacing, and small shim washers will need to be used to get corner tires and center tires to line up if track tuners are used. Very easy to do.

[mowbizz]

And the tracks debate rages on....very confusing

[argojosh]

This is my professional opinion based on the years I have worked with/for/on Argos and Centaurs. I am very sorry that my 7 posts is not up to some standards to some people but I have only recently discovered this marvelous website and think that my knowledge could possibly help a lot of people. I am not here to have an argument. I am just here to help and discuss and NOT argue (I have a very open mind) and unless someone can show me some actual physical proof, I don't necessarily believe it. Track tuner don't have a lot of pros versus the cons. Escargo track are a lot heavier, more aggressive and generally do not like the ARGO tubs when they are turning and slip off easy. I have read multiple times that with different tracks or track tuners that you need the proper set-up/tension but what is stopping you from doing it with normally and keeping your machine in an 8x8 configuration and not 4x4? To be honest the best axle extension set up I've seen is the axle extensions sold and made by Les tout terrain in Quebec. Beadlock rim/tires WERE NOT designed for tracks, how can a beadlock rim be designed for tracks? they are made for low pressure. Argo is making changes because the beadlock rims are causing a lot of icing in the colder temperatures and a lot of rubber reversion but have not been released yet. With the classic or admiral transmission, you do not need 100 hp to break drivetrain components. Brake cooling fans help a LOT to keep your brakes cooled when doing a lot of turning. I have not figured out how to send or post images yet but if anyone wants to message me their e-mail, I would be more than glad to send some pictures of the damages caused by track tuners. I am only doing this as a warning and like I said not interested in an argument, we are all adults that can form our own opinions upon what we experience and I'm sorry if some people feel attacked which is NOT intention, like I said, we're adults.

[Sparx]

As mentioned before, with the tracks issue, pick one that suits your needs and wants for how you plan to use your machine. That will directly decide which track would better suit your needs.
First step is to decide if you need them to swim or not, that will easily rule out the majority of the track types out there. Next your type of primary environment you plan to use the tracks on and wether you want to use them only one season or not.
The rubber tracks are a great track but absolutely have no swimming effect, you will need to bring paddles with you. They are more an all around track that don't do much the best but all pretty good. About their strongest point is floatation in snow and all their weak points (hard turning) go away in the snow. They are smooth riding, but require track tension bang on as when they are wet can easily slip out of their guides. I personally had an issue with sidewall flats tub side on the inside 4 tires with stray logs and had to tube all 4 inner tires as a result. Not one flat once on my Escargo with more miles on them, not one track derail either. The Escargo do toss up more overspray especially in the rear of the machine due to the paddles to point out one weakness, even the factory mud flaps won't help, you need to add some on the back bumper.
For winter, the rubber tracks float and ride great over the snow but struggle on the icey and steep hills. Even with the ice cleats it doesn't improve their performance much for hillclimbing, but help to climb up small ice ledges.
The Escargo on the other hand may not go as fast as the Rubber tracks in the snow but have incredible traction with the metal cleats and climb great on ice or hard snow pack. They do slide sideways a bit spooky on icey sidehills without the winter extension kit and are pretty wide with the winter kit on.
So as you can see, you just need to pick the best track that would work for what you need most in your current environment. There are a lot of options and each of them have their strengths and weakness'.

[argojosh]

As mentioned before, with the tracks issue, pick one that suits your needs and wants for how you plan to use your machine. That will directly decide which track would better suit your needs.
First step is to decide if you need them to swim or not, that will easily rule out the majority of the track types out there. Next your type of primary environment you plan to use the tracks on and wether you want to use them only one season or not.
The rubber tracks are a great track but absolutely have no swimming effect, you will need to bring paddles with you. They are more an all around track that don't do much the best but all pretty good. About their strongest point is floatation in snow and all their weak points (hard turning) go away in the snow. They are smooth riding, but require track tension bang on as when they are wet can easily slip out of their guides. I personally had an issue with sidewall flats tub side on the inside 4 tires with stray logs and had to tube all 4 inner tires as a result. Not one flat once on my Escargo with more miles on them, not one track derail either. The Escargo do toss up more overspray especially in the rear of the machine due to the paddles to point out one weakness, even the factory mud flaps won't help, you need to add some on the back bumper.
For winter, the rubber tracks float and ride great over the snow but struggle on the icey and steep hills. Even with the ice cleats it doesn't improve their performance much for hillclimbing, but help to climb up small ice ledges.
The Escargo on the other hand may not go as fast as the Rubber tracks in the snow but have incredible traction with the metal cleats and climb great on ice or hard snow pack. They do slide sideways a bit spooky on icey sidehills without the winter extension kit and are pretty wide with the winter kit on.
So as you can see, you just need to pick the best track that would work for what you need most in your current environment. There are a lot of options and each of them have their strengths and weakness'.

Well said! I'm sorry to hear about your issue with the rubber tracks and I agree that they are garbage in water. Since it wasn't mentioned, I like the adair tracks for general mudding. The plastic tracks for snow and mud.

[Sparx]

This is my professional opinion based on the years I have worked with/for/on Argos and Centaurs. I am very sorry that my 7 posts is not up to some standards to some people but I have only recently discovered this marvelous website and think that my knowledge could possibly help a lot of people. I am not here to have a pissing match. I am just here to help and discuss and NOT argue (I have a very open mind) and unless someone can show me some actual physical proof, I don't necessarily believe it. Track tuner don't have a lot of pros versus the cons. Escargo track are a lot heavier, more aggressive and generally do not like the ARGO tubs when they are turning and slip off easy. I have read multiple times that with different tracks or track tuners that you need the proper set-up/tension but what is stopping you from doing it with normally and keeping your machine in an 8x8 configuration and not 4x4? To be honest the best axle extension set up I've seen is the axle extensions sold and made by Les tout terrain in Quebec. Beadlock rim/tires WERE NOT designed for tracks, how can a beadlock rim be designed for tracks? they are made for low pressure. Argo is making changes because the beadlock rims are causing a lot of icing in the colder temperatures and a lot of rubber reversion but have not been released yet. With the classic or admiral transmission, you do not need 100 hp to break drivetrain components. Brake cooling fans help a LOT to keep your brakes cooled when doing a lot of turning. I have not figured out how to send or post images yet but if anyone wants to message me their e-mail, I would be more than glad to send some pictures of the damages caused by track tuners. I am only doing this as a warning and like I said not interested in a pissing match, we are all adults that can form our own opinions upon what we experience and I'm sorry if some people feel attacked which is NOT intention, like I said, we're adults.

I'm sorry but you must not have ever even spent a day on Escargo tracks, they actually do the opposite to what you say about derailing easy. They are very hard to derail even with improper tire pressure due to their design. What pictures would you like to prove this? Buzz and I have both had great success with these tracks due to the reason they are hard to slip off, so your suggestion could use some pictures to prove otherwise.
One thing you have to remember with tuners is that most people buy these AFTER they had issues with their machines. So if you get them in your shop to work on yeah it wouldn't be surprising to see damaged sprockets and chains already even with track tuners on. The track tuners don't repair previous damage from improper setup. Buzz knows his stuff and has proven over times via Youtube many videos to support the benefits of the track Tuners. Do you have any solid information to prove otherwise your claims other then some worn sprockets and chains and even frame damage caused solely by these track tuners?

Also, if these beadlocks are supposedly not designed for tracks why would they put an offset on the rim specifically for them? You better send out a bulletin to all the dealers that already have the Rubber tracks on their beadlock units in their showrooms too. Actually it just sounds like you need to work for Argo directly and be their spokeperson. LOL
Adair makes full steel wheel spacers to work with any track setup, 2.5 or 3" wide. They incorporate the grease hole and they are bullet proof when torqued properly and used with their track tuners.

No offense, but it sounds like you are struggling to understand the concept of beadlocks and don't really understand their purpose at all. It's not simply for low pressure, it's primary purpose is to keep the beads onto the rim irregardless of pressure, not simply low pressure. So no, they are not made for low pressure, but allow more secure low pressure use. I was running 2psi in my tires without beadlocks without issue, but obviously I didn't have the security of beadlocks, so you don't NEED these for only this purpose. By all means they are safe to use with tracks. The only issue they could pose is that they cause a wider tire casing section and would promote more sidewall contact to the track guides because of where they clamp on the outside of the rim due to the beadlock nature. It would just cause a tighter fit and more wear, but doesn't seem like Argo sees an issue with this if they are filling their showroom with mounted units.

The reason track tuners work so great is because they allow in variances in tire pressures. So unless you check your tire pressures before every ride and can garauntee your customer has measured and properly placed their tires accordingly, they will be off. Track tuners help tolerate these differences and prevent further wear and tear. So when you setup your machine at +15C in your shop you know you are still good to go when you bring it outside at -15C in winter. Even more so if your machine is older and you have slow leaks in your tires. Nothing shows and explains this better then when rental companies rent Argo's. They rarely receive the proper treatment at any level. They get abused with rubber tracks and that's where all the wear and tear comes from on sprockets and chains and even bent frames. The reason Argo's get the bad rep that they are so hard to maintain is because of this reason of not being setup properly. Track tuners take half the headache out of this issue when used with tracks. They make it easier to steer and less stressful on the drivetrain so less wear. So does that mean you won't believe me unless I take pics of my chains and sprockets that look like new after 1000kms? LOL

If beadlocks were meant for low pressure only you should let all the automotive off-road trucks know they are in the wrong business making these rims for full size pickups.

[argojosh]

I'm sorry but you must not have ever even spent a day on Escargo tracks, they actually do the opposite to what you say about derailing easy. They are very hard to derail even with improper tire pressure due to their design. What pictures would you like to prove this? Buzz and I have both had great success with these tracks due to the reason they are hard to slip off, so your suggestion could use some pictures to prove otherwise.
One thing you have to remember with tuners is that most people buy these AFTER they had issues with their machines. So if you get them in your shop to work on yeah it wouldn't be surprising to see damaged sprockets and chains already even with track tuners on. The track tuners don't repair previous damage from improper setup. Buzz knows his stuff and has proven over times via Youtube many videos to support the benefits of the track Tuners. Do you have any solid information to prove otherwise your claims other then some worn sprockets and chains and even frame damage caused solely by these track tuners?

Also, if these beadlocks are supposedly not designed for tracks why would they put an offset on the rim specifically for them? You better send out a bulletin to all the dealers that already have the Rubber tracks on their beadlock units in their showrooms too. Actually it just sounds like you need to work for Argo directly and be their spokeperson. LOL
Adair makes full steel wheel spacers to work with any track setup, 2.5 or 3" wide. They incorporate the grease hole and they are bullet proof when torqued properly and used with their track tuners.

No offense, but it sounds like you are struggling to understand the concept of beadlocks and don't really understand their purpose at all. It's not simply for low pressure, it's primary purpose is to keep the beads onto the rim irregardless of pressure, not simply low pressure. So no, they are not made for low pressure, but allow more secure low pressure use. I was running 2psi in my tires without beadlocks without issue, but obviously I didn't have the security of beadlocks, so you don't NEED these for only this purpose. By all means they are safe to use with tracks. The only issue they could pose is that they cause a wider tire casing section and would promote more sidewall contact to the track guides because of where they clamp on the outside of the rim due to the beadlock nature. It would just cause a tighter fit and more wear, but doesn't seem like Argo sees an issue with this if they are filling their showroom with mounted units.

The reason track tuners work so great is because they allow in variances in tire pressures. So unless you check your tire pressures before every ride and can garauntee your customer has measured and properly placed their tires accordingly, they will be off. Track tuners help tolerate these differences and prevent further wear and tear. So when you setup your machine at +15C in your shop you know you are still good to go when you bring it outside at -15C in winter. Even more so if your machine is older and you have slow leaks in your tires. Nothing shows and explains this better then when rental companies rent Argo's. They rarely receive the proper treatment at any level. They get abused with rubber tracks and that's where all the wear and tear comes from on sprockets and chains and even bent frames. The reason Argo's get the bad rep that they are so hard to maintain is because of this reason of not being setup properly. Track tuners take half the headache out of this issue when used with tracks. They make it easier to steer and less stressful on the drivetrain so less wear. So does that mean you won't believe me unless I take pics of my chains and sprockets that look like new after 1000kms? LOL

If beadlocks were meant for low pressure only you should let all the automotive off-road trucks know they are in the wrong business making these rims for full size pickups.

Like previously said, I'm not here for a pissing match and it's quickly turning into one. If you would like to discuss this, please send me a private message and I will answer it as a discussion and not a pissing match. I have given my opinion on the matter.

[scimanstev]

Although I do not have time for a proper reply, I will say again how much I appreciate every response. This is an excellent discussion, and I am reading every word carefully. I feel very honored that people with such experience are helping me make the best decisions I can, with the information provided. I will make a better reply when I am not at work, and have plenty of time.

Steve

[Buzz]

Argojosh
I'd be interested in knowing where you get your info. I work on Argos most every day and deal with all track types here in Alaska. I've had exactly the opposite experience as what you describe as have countless others. What is your experience with elevated belt tracks, and I notice you've plugged the other brands/types as your preference. Can you at least tell us where you live and ride?

[Buzz]

Scimanstev
I believe you are looking for general information on a new machine.my only advice would be to go for the best deal, any newer machine with the stronger axles and new style tire will be great. I also prefer the 10 inch wide tire, even if you go with an avenger. The only other preference I have is to run and elevated belt track of which there are many ways to accomplish. It can be made from steel or plastic,and there are many options for people to help you depending on where you live. Good luck have fun and feel free to fire away with more questions. You don't have to spend a lot of money or buy the top of the line machine

[AlaskaGrizzly]

If I was you I'd hold off on buying a set of tracks up front unless you are offered a good discount. Learn the new machine and more about your options. It will come to you as you learn more about the different track options. Sounds like you want a track for the snow so stay focused on those.

I've never run the elevated belt track like the Escargo brand but had the gentleman that builds a similar track in Alaska explain the principles of why the track tuners are a good ideal when running them. You might find a better description on here but in short and sweet terms, with the elevated belt and the way it rolls around the front and back tires the track speed is different than the speed of the outside diameter of the middle tires. The difference in relative speed between the track and middle tires can bind them up. Tuners keep them from binding by letting the middle tires turn at the speed of the track.

I've seen rubber tracks not installed correctly with regards to the tire size and pressures. The chains on that particular machine were so tight it was scary! So, that's why it seems like track tuners would be good on rubber tracks. I helped that guy with sizing the tires and putting them on in the order they were recommended and he said it helped a lot. So, if you get rubber tracks follow Argo's instructions. Again, I think track tuners could help keep the chains from getting over stressed.

I am not sure about how this all relates to breaking axles as I've never broken one since I started running Argos in the mid 90's. I think that probably depends a lot on the driver. Tracks have to be a lot more stressful on the axles so you probably need to keep in mind that you shouldn't drive like you just stole your Argo from the neighbor. I know someone that has broken 5 of the 6 axles on a six wheeler. I'm not even sure what I'd have to do to break one let alone understand how they pulled it off
.

[scimanstev]

I spoke with an Argo dealer in Vermont today. I will wait until August 13th when the 2018 models are released before making a purchase, but I will drive 1:45 on Saturday to visit the dealer. He said I could even drive one a little bit, and he can deliver the fully configured red Argo inside a covered trailer to my drive way. The excitement is building beyond my expectations. The information you all have given me, plus what I have read in other threads has been exceptional. There is a part of me that just wants to drive my Jeep to the Argo dealer, jump in an Argo and drive back home cross country, hopefully with lakes, and mud in the way. I am already planning on driving into my first lake.

Steve

[ARGOJIM]

I am already planning on driving into my first lake.

Steve

Put the plugs in!

[philipatmaxfour]

my first argo

Put the plugs in!

Good advice.