holy crap video

[plott hound]

found this on youtube,found it entertaining.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nUpmUGDgJw&t=43s

[scimanstev]

I saw that. I can see why they got high centered, as there were so many people in there, the water weight would have been high. I was thinking that my land anchor and their winch would have gotten them out quickly. That is one of 3 videos where I saw Escargo tracks stuck. The other 2 were able to winch out easily.

Steve

[allwheeldrive]

Saw this video a few weeks ago, watched it from begging to end. Mesmerized. Thank god that Argo never broke or had any problem running the last thing they needed was to fight the machine as well as the ground.
Incredible you can get stuck with so much traction. No real fault of the machine or driver, just the kind of freak alignment of terrain, momentum and angles that perfectly high centered them. Like someone said in the comment if they had just drove straight into the water they would have been all set vs straddling the land. But Alas hind sight is 20-20 and you can’t always make the best choices off road and sometimes it fun to make the wrong ones and see what happens lol.

What was really crazy was just how hard it was to get unstuck. I mean dang they were camping out there! Can’t fathom how many calories where burned trying to get it to budge. I guess in my own hindsight putting myself in their shoes the best two option would be A. “another machine” It be faster to get scimanstev to drive 2 hours to me or vise versa than try and get it out without another machine. 2 machines can almost always rescue the other 100x faster than hands, rocks, and boards can rescue one machine. Or B. Hike out and get in a car and drive to the closest hardware store and just buy 500 feet of steel cable etc to reach whatever far off tree to winch. Sure it cost a lot, but not as much as 6 people missing work the next day lol.

scimanstev is right a land anchor would be the best tool, but I wonder at this point what would make the better land anchor? The steel spade jammed in the ground or 2,000 pounds of steel escargo track with an Argo on top? This is one of the few times an easier to get stuck but easier to extract machine would be of benefit. Regardless it makes the off road strategist in me think hard.

[scimanstev]

One thing is for sure. If you do get stuck bad, I would be happy to pull you out. There is no place you could go where I couldn't follow.

Steve

[Coast2Coast]

I think this is a result of a lot of guys who buy tracks right away and never really learn what the machine can do. Get a false sense of security that you can just point it and go anywhere. High centering is the kryptonite of the argo. To me the spot they were trying to cross was a red flag as soon as it came into the frame and of course up they went and high centered. When I get into a bad spot I get out and figure out what to do, spinning and digging down into the abyss always always makes things worse.

Not trying to criticize them, hind sight is 20/20. They were just out for a rip having a good time. I've been in much worse places with far less capable machines and been in trouble due to my own stupidity. Nice video to learn from especially with the whole process documented.

[marauder]

I've often wondered why Argos don't come with a lockable differential, might have made a difference in the kind of stuck situation that the video showed, certainly wouldn't have hurt to have both tracks turning at the same time. Does Argo not think a locking dif is worth it, or is it too much of a cost and complexity penalty?

[scimanstev]

Not trying to criticize them, hind sight is 20/20. They were just out for a rip having a good time. I've been in much worse places with far less capable machines and been in trouble due to my own stupidity. Nice video to learn from especially with the whole process documented.

When I first saw this video, and the thousands of others, I did learn what works, and what doesn't. Soon I will be learning from the indispensable class of actual experience. Due to the weight of humans and tracks, I could see why they tried to avoid open water, but I agree they rode right into a situation where they were high centered. I have paid very close attention to so many videos, much of what is designed into my new Avenger came from the mistakes I saw others make.

Steve

[philipatmaxfour]

I've often wondered why Argos don't come with a lockable differential, might have made a difference in the kind of stuck situation that the video showed, certainly wouldn't have hurt to have both tracks turning at the same time. Does Argo not think a locking dif is worth it, or is it too much of a cost and complexity penalty?

I also noticed that the driver was only powering one track a lot of the times in that video but that doesn't mean that all Argos drive through an open differential . I would assume that the driver was wanting to power that side only.

[curtisbyrne]

its not the point about a lockable transmission,that would totally defeat the purpose of Argos and it would be impossible to turn. all he had to do was tap the brake to have all 8 wheels spinning.

[marauder]

Not a lockable transmission, I don't even know what that is, but a lockable differential similar to what rear wheel drive cars have. You can have a lockable differential that activates automatically when it senses a big enough difference between the speed of each side, or you can have the manual type that allows you to choose between open and locked, when you start spinning one side but not the other when stuck you flip a switch and the differential is then locked and you have exactly the same amount of torque and power going to each side of the machine with both sides turning the exact amount. When you get unstuck you can then flip the switch the other way and open the differential so you can turn without binding. Rear wheel drive cars and trucks have had this option almost from the dawn of time, which is why I wonder why the Argos don't have it as either standard or optional equipment. I guess I need an Argo expert to weigh in on this.

[allwheeldrive]

Not a lockable transmission, I don't even know what that is, but a lockable differential similar to what rear wheel drive cars have. You can have a lockable differential that activates automatically when it senses a big enough difference between the speed of each side, or you can have the manual type that allows you to choose between open and locked, when you start spinning one side but not the other when stuck you flip a switch and the differential is then locked and you have exactly the same amount of torque and power going to each side of the machine with both sides turning the exact amount. When you get unstuck you can then flip the switch the other way and open the differential so you can turn without binding. Rear wheel drive cars and trucks have had this option almost from the dawn of time, which is why I wonder why the Argos don't have it as either standard or optional equipment. I guess I need an Argo expert to weigh in on this.

What your describing is pretty much a moot point with a skid steer. A Skid steer directs power to one side or the other in order to turn through the transmission (there isn’t a diff per say)
When you go straight BOTH sides are locked (usually). I am not an Argo expert and they have many different transmission. I do believe some of them are open as you describe when under forward power IE they are like open diffs. This was a design decision to keep the machines from violently lurching in the direction of most traction (and driving off cliffs etc lol). Also you have to realize as curtisbyrne said you can just (turn) hit the brakes and get the side you want to spin unlike a truck or car.
Some machines such as with the T-20 transmission or hydrostatic can provide full “locked” power to both sides of the machine when going forward with no differential action at all. Just don’t turn and both sides spin. However this is of less use than you might image when your only means of turning is via speed adjustment on one side or the other. As one side will almost always have more traction than you need and just keep pointing you the wrong way. Watch videos of the Sherp in action almost all it does is rev up and down giving one side of the tires blips of throttal to keep its self in a strigth line.

One thing is for sure. If you do get stuck bad, I would be happy to pull you out. There is no place you could go where I couldn't follow.
Steve

Thanks I’ll keep that in mind if I end up in Hell ;-p

[marauder]

All Argos have open differentials or they wouldn't be able to turn, and just like a car with an open differential the power and torque always seek a path of least resistance, so when you are going straight and are on the same type of ground the resistance is the same so both sides push the same amount, but if you encounter less traction on one side than the other then that side is the side with the lesser of resistance and will spin while the other side does nothing as all the torque is routed to the spinning side, as illustrated in the video here and countless other places. Simply braking the side that is spinning will just bring it to a stop so it is temporarily equal to the already stopped side. When you try to go again you are right back to where you started with uneven resistance between the two sides. If you could lock the diff at this point then you would send the same amount of torque to each side and the stationary side would now have the ability to move and help get you unstuck. As far as the other machines that use the T-20 and hydraulic drive, they don't have differentials because in effect they have two different transmissions, one per side, so they can control each side independently and vary the amount of torque and speed for each side, resulting in the ability to turn due to the speed difference between the two sides. If one side loses traction it has no affect on the other side because the other side is not connected to the spinning side, they are independent of each other, unlike the open differential that the Argos use.

I hope this is clear, I don't know any other way of explaining it and hopefully an Argo expert can set me straight as to why Argo don't have the option of a lockable diff.

[marauder]

All Argos have open differentials or they wouldn't be able to turn, and just like a car with an open differential the power and torque always seek a path of least resistance, so when you are going straight and are on the same type of ground the resistance is the same so both sides push the same amount, but if you encounter less traction on one side than the other then that side is the side with the lesser of resistance and will spin while the other side does nothing as all the torque is routed to the spinning side, as illustrated in the video here and countless other places. Simply braking the side that is spinning will just bring it to a stop so it is temporarily equal to the already stopped side. When you try to go again you are right back to where you started with uneven resistance between the two sides. If you could lock the diff at this point then you would send the same amount of torque to each side and the stationary side would now have the ability to move and help get you unstuck. As far as the other machines that use the T-20 and hydraulic drive, they don't have differentials because in effect they have two different transmissions, one per side, so they can control each side independently and vary the amount of torque and speed for each side, resulting in the ability to turn due to the speed difference between the two sides. If one side loses traction it has no affect on the other side because the other side is not connected to the spinning side, they are independent of each other, unlike the open differential that the Argos use.

I hope this is clear, I don't know any other way of explaining it and hopefully an Argo expert can set me straight as to why Argo don't have the option of a lockable diff.

[Craig_B]

All Argos have open differentials or they wouldn't be able to turn, and just like a car with an open differential the power and torque always seek a path of least resistance, so when you are going straight and are on the same type of ground the resistance is the same so both sides push the same amount, but if you encounter less traction on one side than the other then that side is the side with the lesser of resistance and will spin while the other side does nothing as all the torque is routed to the spinning side, as illustrated in the video here and countless other places. Simply braking the side that is spinning will just bring it to a stop so it is temporarily equal to the already stopped side. When you try to go again you are right back to where you started with uneven resistance between the two sides. If you could lock the diff at this point then you would send the same amount of torque to each side and the stationary side would now have the ability to move and help get you unstuck. As far as the other machines that use the T-20 and hydraulic drive, they don't have differentials because in effect they have two different transmissions, one per side, so they can control each side independently and vary the amount of torque and speed for each side, resulting in the ability to turn due to the speed difference between the two sides. If one side loses traction it has no affect on the other side because the other side is not connected to the spinning side, they are independent of each other, unlike the open differential that the Argos use.

I hope this is clear, I don't know any other way of explaining it and hopefully an Argo expert can set me straight as to why Argo don't have the option of a lockable diff.

I dont think you truly understand how an Argos drive line works.
I am certainly no expert but to the best of my knowledge an Argo has no "differential". Yes you find those in cars and trucks but not these machines.

They are a direct drive to both sides of the drive line at all times when in gear. Applying the brake to one side or the other disengages that side and applies the power to the opposite side only. This allows the machine to "skid steer".

In this particular video if only one side was turning it was because the operator had the brakes applied to the other side. On purpose on not who knows.
He could have kept equal power to both sides of the drive line as that is how they operate under normal conditions., unless something was broken.

I too would like some clarification on this subject from one of the resident Argo experts.

[allwheeldrive]

I was not aware this was the case with all Argos, I thought it was just the Admiral transmission or a select few. (I do recall at least one Argo set up having the properties of an open diff IE lift the machine on blocks power forward all tires spin but if you put resistance on one side that side would stop even if the driver was not steering, someone who knows more than me can confirm yay or nay on this) Really don’t listen to me I don’t know anything about Argo drive train besides the fact they use chains ;-)
In the case where they have the properties of an open diff you would be correct in your description. Power will find the path of least resistance and the side with less traction will slip more (assuming there is little enough traction to say allow Escargo or Adair tracks to slip.)

As to why they would not include a locker? I figure for the same reason most manufactures do not include lockers on diff driven automobiles. Extra cost, complexity, and increased risk of breakage due to user error. Nearly every single hardcore ATV mudding video ends with a broken diff locker, or a broken diff or a broken axle that wouldn’t of happened if they didn’t have lockers. It’s the same thing with huge mega mud trucks. These guys are not welding their 2.5 and 5 ton Rockwell axles because they are too stupid to realize how much of an improvement a locked diff makes, it’s just sometimes it’s better to get stuck than broken. Especially when you’re going to be abusing your machine knowingly. I’m sure Argo researched it’s clientele and realized the gains were not worth it. If the majority of their customers that keep them in business are not going to be purposefully trying to get stuck than they really don’t need that one last trick to get out of a jam.

Don’t get me wrong, I’m ALL for lockers, my 4x4 truck has a locker I call my (get unstuck button, or don’t stop moving button) and the difference is night and day, it’s simply unreal how much more traction I gain with a locked rear.

My Coot doesn’t even have diffs, it’s all locked all the time and well.. that thing makes my truck look like a moped off road. HOWEVER Lockers are not the be all to end all. When you have enough traction it may just not be worth the risk to have a locker that could put unneeded strain on drive train components. ATVs and Trucks with Mattracks will go where a 4x4 with lockers could never. Likewise I have driven a Honda Civic with snow chains in places and through things that my 4x4 truck would be leery of. In fact I’d promise 2 snow chains on a 2 wheel drive truck will out drive any comparable sized truck with 4x4 and two lockers up slick mud hills. I’ve seen it happen, I’ve done it.

So in some sense an Argo with Escargo tracks is kinda like a 4x4 with snow chains… I mean sure locked would be better but at the point most would get stuck it just may be such a low possibility that it’s not even worth worrying about.