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I've got an argo 8x8, 1986. Standard stuff for it's vintage: 18 hp Kohler, Hydraulic brakes, sloppy chains, worn bearings and seals, etc...
We bought it last year and it's been fun, but honestly it's pretty rough with any kind of speed. And loud. And uncomfortable. And it's old. And it's tired. And it needs lots of repairs. And....well you get the idea. It doesn't help that I'm pretty broken up from my job (28 years Helo Search and Rescue), so every jar, bump or skid turn is pretty uncomfortable for me. The missus doen't particularly enjoy that either, not to mention the dogs!.
But I do prefer it to a quad or side by side, as you stay a lot drier and cleaner when slopping thorough mud or wet ground. Shelter in poor weather is better in my Argo than a SxS too. Bikes? mine are all road bikes now. I'm too old and broken for the pounding you get on dirt bikes and I'm not smart enough (or too stubborn maybe?) to slow down and/or not jump them......
So my choices are;
A. Sell the Argo. But I won't get much for it. certainly not what I have in to it. It's old and people just seem to want "new and no work" these days. Gawd help them if they actually have to fix something, those skills seem totally lost these days. Argo's are also very low demand around these parts, used or old have an even lower demand. People mainly want quads or SXS around here because, well....it's what everyone else wants (IE:the sheep effect). Or;
B. Take it down to the tub and frame and do something cool with it. Stock rebuild won't do, I'll just end up with pretty much what I already have, just a little more capable and a little more reliable. I'll just sell it for whatever I can get before spending money and time on a stock "refresh".
Modifying it has another attraction for me: I'm full on retired in about 6 months. So a complex, involved build project would a be a welcome time filler.
I already have the Argo, most of the parts I would need are in bins out in the garage and the welder/lathe/mill can take care of anything I need to make for it. So costs would be, *ahem*....relatively low: some steel/aluminum, smattering of rod ends and a few specific bits like props ,bearings and seals is about all I would have to be out of pocket for....
So, the plans to modify it (If I keep it):
1.Suspension is a given, with my physical limitations. That's actually pretty easy (comparatively) for me to do. I have the tools and the skills. The budget may be a different story. I probably have most of the parts I need out in the garage also from various atv's I've pulled apart over the years. I can build whatever I can't modify for my purposes.
Suspension would also give me a little more ground clearance. That's a plus here as there's lots of sharp, jagged shale outcroppings to deal with. I've gouged the skid pan pretty deeply more than once, usually not knowing it until I've gotten out of the mud/reeds/grass etc.
This will all mean it's going to get taller and I have a hard enough time getting in to it as it is. But I can fix that with a step or maybe fab up a folding step. There will be ample room for a step on either side with a suspension pushing the wheels down and out a bit more. Taller and wider might be a problem on some tight trails, but i ride pretty wide ones these days, not a fan of crawling over rocks and roots (IE: busted bod).
2. Steering.
Skid steer is an issue for me. I have a scheme to steer the front two wheels and maintain water integrity.
In a nutshell: handlebars, levers, transverse rods, hull bearing/seal, lever, rods, steering knuckles, two front knuckles linked on each side. Hard to picture it without a drawing. Maybe these images off the 'net will make it a bit clearer:
Obviously, I can't do the drag links between left and right knuckles. It would be impossible to seal the hull or they would catch on everything if I try to put them under the hull. The drag link function will have to be handled in the engine bay (more on that later) with the transverse rod and lever arrangement. The steering knuckle links I'll have to go good and sturdy to keep them tracking with each other at the right geometry. Might be a nightmare to keep adjusted properly. Have to see if I get in to building it how bad it will go. Or: I just give up water travel. But that would kind of defeat the purpose of having an Argo IMHO....
Brakes would remain on the transmission, but pedals on the floor. Thinking maybe a three pedal setup of some sort to possibly maintain some of the skid steer benefits. basically, left and right pedals would actuate their respective sides and a center pedal would activate both. Big center portion and small outer pedals so you are less likely to hit "TURN" when you want "STOP". May just go with a RH lever to activate both and leave steering to the tires. Dunno which way to go with brakes/skid steer, still thinking on that one....
Sure, turning front wheels won't turn in it's length like skid steer, but it should be less jarring (for the record; I know how to turn it and minimize the jarring). Wife does really not like how it turns, but likes the space and "splash coverage". I could also have 4th set (or 3rd and 4th) of wheels counter steer, but that would be considerably more work to fabricate. 1st and second set would have to turn at different rates, but that's easily figured out with lever lengths.
Steering means I would have to give up the tracks, but I don't swamp or snow travel any more so that's not a problem. Trail ride and a little mud from time to time is about all I do. I suppose I could "half track" it if the rear wheels don't steer (or if I build it so they can be locked).
3. Engine swap/balance.
I find the "balance" of the Argo kind of a PITA, on land and in water. Catch an unexpected bounce and it nose dives for the ground like crazy. Get in water and I often wonder if it's going to "submarine" on me. Entering the water is almost an act of faith, unless it's backed in. Neither land or water behavior is confidence building...especially for the wife.
Since I am thinking of swapping in a Honda VF750F engine. It's a project bike that isn't going to get finished so it becomes a "donor". I'll keep the CVT and the bike gearbox for more speeds/options. I am also thinking of mounting it (and transmission pack) mid or rear chassis. It weighs nearly the same as the iron Kohler, takes up less space and makes more power. Torque is only a bit more than the Kohler, and (unbelievably) peaks pretty close to the same RPM as the Kohler. It makes 88 Hp, but that's up around 9-10 grand. I'll never be there. The VF engines are low rpm "grunters" because of the V4 configuration. Jut like the opposed twin Kohler is a "grunter".
I don't hunt so that takes a whole bunch of traditional Argo "needs" off the list. With that said, I have lots of options for mounting locations in the hull.
I never have many people with me either (Wife and the dog at most) and only do day trips at best so taking up passenger/cargo space isn't a big deal. We always have more than we need. I can always regain some cargo space by using the Argo "engine bay" as a "trunk".
Rear engine (like a Max) begins to make more sense to me the more I think about it: cargo/gash in the front, me and the wife in the front seats, dog behind us, engine in back behind a "firewall". Seems like a more balanced arrangement to me instead of everything/everybody at or forward of the halfway point.
Also, having all the mechanical bits at the rear of that looong 8x8 tub will make it a helluva lot quieter/enjoyable on trail rides. That old iron barreled air cooled opposed twin Kohler, the exhaust outlet out in front of you and that straight cut gearbox right in front of your knees makes for one loud power package. A nice rear pointing muffler, liquid cooled V4 and a decently insulated firewall will make it much more enjoyable, especially for the wife. In case you haven't guessed; the wife's enjoyment of my stuff has a direct effect on how long (or if) I keep something. And, I'll get rid of everything (except the dogs) before I get rid of her. She's a keeper....for multiple reasons.
4. Water travel.
I currently use a 2 HP outboard for water crossings. I don't have swimming tires (PO put knobbies on it, which also makes skid steer issues worse!). Lots of what I cross is just deep enough to float the argo, but not deep enough to use the outboard. or it's deep enough to float, but running fast enough to mean getting the outboard working is usually too late. then there's rocks and banks to worry about. It just ends up being a cluster all around and I'm usually just pushing it with a pole to where the tires can get purchase again.
Since I'm looking at going with ATV tires and rims, I'm thinking of building a prop system. I've got lots of 1:1, 1:2, 1:3, 1:4, etc 90 degree gearboxes, so it's just building it I have and a few bought/built parts. Something just up and behind the rear tub. Out of hte way of ground, deep enough to get sufficient water flow. Probably ducted to pull water from under the hull to provide decent thrust. Only ducted to the hull level, not below it (prevent snagging issues). Not a jet drive, just ducted to direct water to the props instead of spinning in the eddies behind the hull. Sealing up the shafts are no problem, I've done it inboard drive boats before. I know someone tried it on a Max with mixed results (pictures are on here somewhere I think), but even 2-3 mph would be fine for my uses. I'm not going fishing in it, just need to cross water from time to time. Hmmm, maybe I could do something like a drop down prop as seen on a schwimmwagen...
Yup, that's a lot of work and a lot of time. definitely will have to be done in stages. IE: engine swap/relocation plus frame modifications, then suspension and more frame modifications, then steering and the PITA of sorting it out properly, etc, etc.
Probably a lot of failures and setbacks too. But that's what projects are all about: build it, break it, build it better, break it, wonder what the heck went wrong, build it again, break it, .......
But I'm retired and was thinking of building a 4x4 independent suspension buggy anyways. This would be similar in scope and occupy lots of my time, but with the added fun of "WTF IS THAT?!?!" questions out on the trail. It also has a registration, which is important around these parts if you intend to use it anywhere that's not your private land.
Not to mention; it will use up a lot of parts I've got cluttering up the garages. I would probably end up just throwing that stuff out anyways.....or so the wife has been threatening...LOL!
Or: I suppose I could just build an independent suspension 4x4 rail frame buggy and drop the hull down between the rails with the engine in back.
But where's the fun in building that?
So, sell it?
Or keep it and build it into something that will just confuse people?
We bought it last year and it's been fun, but honestly it's pretty rough with any kind of speed. And loud. And uncomfortable. And it's old. And it's tired. And it needs lots of repairs. And....well you get the idea. It doesn't help that I'm pretty broken up from my job (28 years Helo Search and Rescue), so every jar, bump or skid turn is pretty uncomfortable for me. The missus doen't particularly enjoy that either, not to mention the dogs!.
But I do prefer it to a quad or side by side, as you stay a lot drier and cleaner when slopping thorough mud or wet ground. Shelter in poor weather is better in my Argo than a SxS too. Bikes? mine are all road bikes now. I'm too old and broken for the pounding you get on dirt bikes and I'm not smart enough (or too stubborn maybe?) to slow down and/or not jump them......
So my choices are;
A. Sell the Argo. But I won't get much for it. certainly not what I have in to it. It's old and people just seem to want "new and no work" these days. Gawd help them if they actually have to fix something, those skills seem totally lost these days. Argo's are also very low demand around these parts, used or old have an even lower demand. People mainly want quads or SXS around here because, well....it's what everyone else wants (IE:the sheep effect). Or;
B. Take it down to the tub and frame and do something cool with it. Stock rebuild won't do, I'll just end up with pretty much what I already have, just a little more capable and a little more reliable. I'll just sell it for whatever I can get before spending money and time on a stock "refresh".
Modifying it has another attraction for me: I'm full on retired in about 6 months. So a complex, involved build project would a be a welcome time filler.
I already have the Argo, most of the parts I would need are in bins out in the garage and the welder/lathe/mill can take care of anything I need to make for it. So costs would be, *ahem*....relatively low: some steel/aluminum, smattering of rod ends and a few specific bits like props ,bearings and seals is about all I would have to be out of pocket for....
So, the plans to modify it (If I keep it):
1.Suspension is a given, with my physical limitations. That's actually pretty easy (comparatively) for me to do. I have the tools and the skills. The budget may be a different story. I probably have most of the parts I need out in the garage also from various atv's I've pulled apart over the years. I can build whatever I can't modify for my purposes.
Suspension would also give me a little more ground clearance. That's a plus here as there's lots of sharp, jagged shale outcroppings to deal with. I've gouged the skid pan pretty deeply more than once, usually not knowing it until I've gotten out of the mud/reeds/grass etc.
This will all mean it's going to get taller and I have a hard enough time getting in to it as it is. But I can fix that with a step or maybe fab up a folding step. There will be ample room for a step on either side with a suspension pushing the wheels down and out a bit more. Taller and wider might be a problem on some tight trails, but i ride pretty wide ones these days, not a fan of crawling over rocks and roots (IE: busted bod).
2. Steering.
Skid steer is an issue for me. I have a scheme to steer the front two wheels and maintain water integrity.
In a nutshell: handlebars, levers, transverse rods, hull bearing/seal, lever, rods, steering knuckles, two front knuckles linked on each side. Hard to picture it without a drawing. Maybe these images off the 'net will make it a bit clearer:
Obviously, I can't do the drag links between left and right knuckles. It would be impossible to seal the hull or they would catch on everything if I try to put them under the hull. The drag link function will have to be handled in the engine bay (more on that later) with the transverse rod and lever arrangement. The steering knuckle links I'll have to go good and sturdy to keep them tracking with each other at the right geometry. Might be a nightmare to keep adjusted properly. Have to see if I get in to building it how bad it will go. Or: I just give up water travel. But that would kind of defeat the purpose of having an Argo IMHO....
Brakes would remain on the transmission, but pedals on the floor. Thinking maybe a three pedal setup of some sort to possibly maintain some of the skid steer benefits. basically, left and right pedals would actuate their respective sides and a center pedal would activate both. Big center portion and small outer pedals so you are less likely to hit "TURN" when you want "STOP". May just go with a RH lever to activate both and leave steering to the tires. Dunno which way to go with brakes/skid steer, still thinking on that one....
Sure, turning front wheels won't turn in it's length like skid steer, but it should be less jarring (for the record; I know how to turn it and minimize the jarring). Wife does really not like how it turns, but likes the space and "splash coverage". I could also have 4th set (or 3rd and 4th) of wheels counter steer, but that would be considerably more work to fabricate. 1st and second set would have to turn at different rates, but that's easily figured out with lever lengths.
Steering means I would have to give up the tracks, but I don't swamp or snow travel any more so that's not a problem. Trail ride and a little mud from time to time is about all I do. I suppose I could "half track" it if the rear wheels don't steer (or if I build it so they can be locked).
3. Engine swap/balance.
I find the "balance" of the Argo kind of a PITA, on land and in water. Catch an unexpected bounce and it nose dives for the ground like crazy. Get in water and I often wonder if it's going to "submarine" on me. Entering the water is almost an act of faith, unless it's backed in. Neither land or water behavior is confidence building...especially for the wife.
Since I am thinking of swapping in a Honda VF750F engine. It's a project bike that isn't going to get finished so it becomes a "donor". I'll keep the CVT and the bike gearbox for more speeds/options. I am also thinking of mounting it (and transmission pack) mid or rear chassis. It weighs nearly the same as the iron Kohler, takes up less space and makes more power. Torque is only a bit more than the Kohler, and (unbelievably) peaks pretty close to the same RPM as the Kohler. It makes 88 Hp, but that's up around 9-10 grand. I'll never be there. The VF engines are low rpm "grunters" because of the V4 configuration. Jut like the opposed twin Kohler is a "grunter".
I don't hunt so that takes a whole bunch of traditional Argo "needs" off the list. With that said, I have lots of options for mounting locations in the hull.
I never have many people with me either (Wife and the dog at most) and only do day trips at best so taking up passenger/cargo space isn't a big deal. We always have more than we need. I can always regain some cargo space by using the Argo "engine bay" as a "trunk".
Rear engine (like a Max) begins to make more sense to me the more I think about it: cargo/gash in the front, me and the wife in the front seats, dog behind us, engine in back behind a "firewall". Seems like a more balanced arrangement to me instead of everything/everybody at or forward of the halfway point.
Also, having all the mechanical bits at the rear of that looong 8x8 tub will make it a helluva lot quieter/enjoyable on trail rides. That old iron barreled air cooled opposed twin Kohler, the exhaust outlet out in front of you and that straight cut gearbox right in front of your knees makes for one loud power package. A nice rear pointing muffler, liquid cooled V4 and a decently insulated firewall will make it much more enjoyable, especially for the wife. In case you haven't guessed; the wife's enjoyment of my stuff has a direct effect on how long (or if) I keep something. And, I'll get rid of everything (except the dogs) before I get rid of her. She's a keeper....for multiple reasons.
4. Water travel.
I currently use a 2 HP outboard for water crossings. I don't have swimming tires (PO put knobbies on it, which also makes skid steer issues worse!). Lots of what I cross is just deep enough to float the argo, but not deep enough to use the outboard. or it's deep enough to float, but running fast enough to mean getting the outboard working is usually too late. then there's rocks and banks to worry about. It just ends up being a cluster all around and I'm usually just pushing it with a pole to where the tires can get purchase again.
Since I'm looking at going with ATV tires and rims, I'm thinking of building a prop system. I've got lots of 1:1, 1:2, 1:3, 1:4, etc 90 degree gearboxes, so it's just building it I have and a few bought/built parts. Something just up and behind the rear tub. Out of hte way of ground, deep enough to get sufficient water flow. Probably ducted to pull water from under the hull to provide decent thrust. Only ducted to the hull level, not below it (prevent snagging issues). Not a jet drive, just ducted to direct water to the props instead of spinning in the eddies behind the hull. Sealing up the shafts are no problem, I've done it inboard drive boats before. I know someone tried it on a Max with mixed results (pictures are on here somewhere I think), but even 2-3 mph would be fine for my uses. I'm not going fishing in it, just need to cross water from time to time. Hmmm, maybe I could do something like a drop down prop as seen on a schwimmwagen...
Yup, that's a lot of work and a lot of time. definitely will have to be done in stages. IE: engine swap/relocation plus frame modifications, then suspension and more frame modifications, then steering and the PITA of sorting it out properly, etc, etc.
Probably a lot of failures and setbacks too. But that's what projects are all about: build it, break it, build it better, break it, wonder what the heck went wrong, build it again, break it, .......
But I'm retired and was thinking of building a 4x4 independent suspension buggy anyways. This would be similar in scope and occupy lots of my time, but with the added fun of "WTF IS THAT?!?!" questions out on the trail. It also has a registration, which is important around these parts if you intend to use it anywhere that's not your private land.
Not to mention; it will use up a lot of parts I've got cluttering up the garages. I would probably end up just throwing that stuff out anyways.....or so the wife has been threatening...LOL!
Or: I suppose I could just build an independent suspension 4x4 rail frame buggy and drop the hull down between the rails with the engine in back.
But where's the fun in building that?
So, sell it?
Or keep it and build it into something that will just confuse people?
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