25" Rawhides on a 1999 Conquest?

[Pophamrt1]

Take a look at the attached Ebay listing... they claim to have upgraded their Conquest to 25" rawhides (pictured on the machine). I saw in other threads that some are just barely squeezing in 24" Frontier tires, but has anyone successfully run 25" rawhides on their conquest without relocating the axles?

Argo 8x8 amphibious atv : eBay Motors (item 120520427463 end time Jan-26-10 18:31:51 PST)

[Rock Doctor]

It said the listing has been removed.

I have 24" Frontiers on my Conquest, and would love to see a set of 25's on one. I just don't think it gona happen.

This is how much room I have between my Frontiers:




RD

[Roger S]

That listing was wrong, there was a lot of space between the tires.. the normal amount for 22" tires. If they were "25s" it was some narrow rawhide look alike that when put on a wide wheel got shortened.

[Pophamrt1]

Too good to be true I guess. Anyone ever look at squeazing 25s in by relocating the three rear axles just a bit over 1/2/3 inches and re-drilling the tub? Roger or Rock, didn't one of you lower your center axles to gain pivot? I have CAD/CNC. If it were plausible I could run some offset plates that would drop into the existing frame holes and act as a template to relocate the axles and drill the tub. Just feeling it out right now, but it sure would be nice to drop some true 25s into a Conquest. ASXs on K-locs?

[Roger S]

Pophamrt, If you have the means, who am I to stand in your way

Here's what I think I know. The sprockets are up against the frame end tubes right now.. I guess you could cut the rear tube out and put channel in like the new argos.

I did lower my 4 center axles a 1/2", trying to reduce sreering effort after putting bigger tires and wheels on the Response. It did help, and added some ground clearance. It also put the big O.D. sprockets on axle #2 a hair off the poly floor. So now they run in the mud and water. I could have used your template, instead of my plywood with steel sleeves for drill guides and I could use an adapter to back up the inner bearing flange in the enlarged hole.

If I had to do it again, I'd probably not do the axles, as 30 hp solved the steering problem. I'd put the 24" frontier tires on it with 8" wheels. And call it done. 9" wheels and big tires added a ~100~ lbs to the 8 wheeler.

Or just trade up to the new frontier 8x8, with more tunnel clearance, sell the frontier tires and get the big brother 25" tires. I could really call that done. Well, after building the 23 briggs, anyway..

[Bw6]

Walking Beam Suspension

Ok, this discussion has motivated me to share some of my thoughts with the Forum Members. I was going to keep this idea to myself, and make it part of my next build, but maybe one of you guys can run with it.

The premise is this:

1. How do you, increase ground clearance?
2. Have basically no limit as to tire size you want to use?
3. No modifications to your tub?
4. Have a 6" travel suspension?
5. Climb just about any obstacle without hitting the tub (more tire out front/back)?
6. Can be installed on any Argo or Max or just about any AATV, 6x6 or 8x8.
7. Is track ready no axle extensions needed.

Best part is if you don't like it you can put everything back the way it was. Right now some may be saying sure, your dreaming. Others may be saying "show me". Check out the pics. These are from a friend of mine in Switzerland who has built an articulating/hydrostatic/8x8, now its not amphibious but I think the smart guys on this forum can follow how this will work on any 6x6 or 8x8.

I have a couple more pics to add, but it won't let me, probably a limit, but will add them to my next post.

[Rock Doctor]

I build my trailers with the "Walking Beam" type suspension, and always wondered what it would be like to do the same for my Argo. Very interesting idea, and I would like to see it put into action. I think you should give it a try Bw6. I just wonder about stresses put on the axles with that added leverage.

RD

[Bw6]

Walking Beam Continued

RD, I remember you mentioned a while back about your trailers using a walking beam, the concept isn't new as you know. There are many manufacturers that use this principal in trailers, tractor trailers, agricultural spray tankers, and even one AATV manufacturer out your way (Sask.) called a "Wolverine" a hydrostatic, expensive, commercial machine.

I already have the design done, but have enough on my plate right now, so I think it would be a good idea for one of the other forum members to give it a try. I would be willing to help out anyone who wants to go for it. You would need to go to a bigger axle say the new style Argo HDi 1 3/16" axle/bearing combo would work fine. Here are a few more pics:

[Pophamrt1]

Hi Roger/Rock, Its always bugged me that there's so little mechanical difference between the Conquest and Avenger. The '98 Conquest with supertracks I picked up could run 25s and 35hp without too much effort--done while restoring. I like projects as long as they're reasonable and look at CNC'ing brackets, cutting frames, and reworking as interesting/entertaining. I also have a set of of 25s on the shelf as well as a rewroked Kaw fd750d, both looking for a home. Given that, I took some quick measurements and there's enough available real-estate in the rear of the tub to cut and extend the frame rails by 3." That would easily allow 25s. Cutting and welding new plates into the frame would actually strengthen it if done correclty. I'm most concerned about tub integrity. Moving the rear three axles by 1/2/3 inches would leave behind holes to close and seal, likely with a combination of plastic welding and some custom outer sealing plates. Any thoughts or suggestions? Would the tub be compromised by that much cutting and pasting?

[Roger S]

While we're brainstorming, whether this whole idea is reasonable or not how about taking out the front frame tube and moving the front axles forward a few chain links, using the frontier/avenger bearing extensions. That way you'd leave the second axle in place.

The problem with this whole idea is, as you lengthen the wheelbase, the tires will get close/hit the end curves of the upper body.

[Beardefence]

Looks like you have one tire (tread) each way? If you know what I mean! Is this because you need to change the mounting of a tire?

[Rock Doctor]

Looks like you have one tire (tread) each way? If you know what I mean! Is this because you need to change the mounting of a tire?

I assume this is directed at me
I had my front tires swapped around to test the theory that the Argo will climb out of holes better with the fronts turned around. I remain undecided on that point, but did feel that the Argo did NOT climb out of rutts as easy with the tires this way. The end result of my playing and testing is that I have all my tires back on the "right" way, except for my 3rd axles. I kept those "backwards" becouse I found that it helps tha machine swim in reverse, but does not adversly effect swimming forward.

RD

[Pophamrt1]

I looked at clearance at rear where the tub curves down. From the center point of the axle extension attachment point to the curved part of the tub surface is a constant 26” distance. That support's center point is exactly 5" rearward of the last axle. Plenty of room to go back as far as 5" and as go as large as 25.5” diameter tire without reshaping.

I’d hesitate to move the front axle instead of the 2nd. Its so tight in there. I’d rather fabricate where there's some room to move into. So, options for moving the rear three axles are:

1. 25” Center to Center (1/2/3” moves)—would easily allow 25s at 2-3psi, and likely up to 4-5psi. Would require removing the rear frame crossmember and mounting it 3” further back in the tub flat against the hitch mount area.

2. 25.67” center to center(1.67/3.33/5.00” moves) —would likely allow 26s on 10” K-Locs.” I’ll try a 26x13.5x12 Vampire ASX on a K-Loc I have just for kicks. Not sure what the machine would be like with 8 ASXs though. Skid steering got much easier on the Max IV when I replaced the rawhide 25s with the ASXs.

Any thought on flipping the rear axle extensions around to face forward and beefing up the frame point where is mounts? Option 1 might not require it, but option 2 would definitely.

Brainstorming but its getting interesting.

[Rock Doctor]

Hi Roger/Rock, Its always bugged me that there's so little mechanical difference between the Conquest and Avenger. The '98 Conquest with supertracks I picked up could run 25s and 35hp without too much effort--done while restoring. I like projects as long as they're reasonable and look at CNC'ing brackets, cutting frames, and reworking as interesting/entertaining. I also have a set of of 25s on the shelf as well as a rewroked Kaw fd750d, both looking for a home. Given that, I took some quick measurements and there's enough available real-estate in the rear of the tub to cut and extend the frame rails by 3." That would easily allow 25s. Cutting and welding new plates into the frame would actually strengthen it if done correclty. I'm most concerned about tub integrity. Moving the rear three axles by 1/2/3 inches would leave behind holes to close and seal, likely with a combination of plastic welding and some custom outer sealing plates. Any thoughts or suggestions? Would the tub be compromised by that much cutting and pasting?

While I do think it is possible, I think you just might be leaning toward unreasonable. If you were to insist on trying it out, I might suggest getting an older 6x6 to practice on. That way, you could get an Argo Trailer Tub to use as a replaicment lower tub for the project. It would be much easier to patch the trailer axle holes and put the new holes where you want, than fixing "half" holes. It might even be easier to gut a machine and build yourself a tub that is more to your liking, although not many people have that kind of time on their hands

[Roger S]

Well I think the whole idea is unreasonable, but I guess that's not relevant yet? Personally I'm not fond of rawhide III's. If I had some, I'd sell them since they're gettings rare. But back to the unreasonable.. you might be able to buy a lower tub that was uncut. Also, if you havn't already thought about it, your lengthening will be based on increments of 5/8", the chain pitch.

Back to reasonable in my realm.. I've seen a new '09 frontier 8x8 for $13000. Spend a $1000 on the 23 briggs and call it good. Sell the conquest, 29 Kaw, and all the tires/wheels, or try the 25's on the new 8x8. But that leaves the cnc idle..