Buying a new HDI

[Northriver21]

Hey guys, I'm new to the forum, but not new to Argo's. I have bee using Argo's here in Alaska since the 80's. I try to upgrade every 5-6 years.

I have been watching this thread very close. I am in the same boat as the OP. It is getting time to upgrade the 05 Avenger. I will likely buy a new rig here in the next month or two, but everytime I make a decision to HDI or not to HDI a post comes up to make me reconsider.

I just don't feel 100% comfortable with the HDI for reasons stated in this thread. My dealer assures me that all of the bad press on the HDI was the 2010 model year and that all issues are resolved. I'm not buying that line just yet.

I think I can still get a 750 EFI this season, so I may just get one of those and wait for the HDI to improve before I need to upgrade again.

Any opinions on that logic? Keep the info coming....This is good stuff and much appreciated.

[AlaskaGrizzly]

RD you are absolutely right because there were in fact two 700cc quads on this trip (Yamaha Grizzlys). However we most times cannot get them thru the swamps to where we end up downing the moose or if we can get them there they can not haul much out at a time. the Mudd-Ox can haul the whole moose and three people where ever we point it. Also we used to take an argo back there prior to the Mudd-Ox. It was not an HDI. the problem with the argo was that about 20 miles back there is a very very steep long hill (2500 ft of vertical over about a mile) that the argo was hard to control going down and could not climb up with out a quad either pulling or pushing it up. This hill has some turns in it and trying to negoiate the turns with the argo would rob enough power that it could not climb it without assistance and this is with out a trailer. The Mudd-Ox allows the descent with great control and climbs it with the trailer easily. In fact if the quads are towing trailers we use the Ox to assist them up the hill. Argos have a long good history here in Alaska and are very capable machines it just seems like the Mudd-Ox offers some advantages and is definately built stronger although that comes with a weight penalty. BTW I appreciate your informative experienced posts and your are a true asset to these forums.

How does the Mudd-ox handle loose rock on hills? I'm guessing Mudd-ox's tend to spin out just like Argo's. I assume you are talking about Monument Hill at the L. Nelchina. Never have taken my Conquest back there but I do think it would take a little finess, and some winching, to get it back up with a moose in the back and a loaded trailer. Hills like that is where the hydrostatic drive of the Ox would shine.

[AlaskaGrizzly]

Hey guys, I'm new to the forum, but not new to Argo's. I have bee using Argo's here in Alaska since the 80's. I try to upgrade every 5-6 years.

I have been watching this thread very close. I am in the same boat as the OP. It is getting time to upgrade the 05 Avenger. I will likely buy a new rig here in the next month or two, but everytime I make a decision to HDI or not to HDI a post comes up to make me reconsider.

I just don't feel 100% comfortable with the HDI for reasons stated in this thread. My dealer assures me that all of the bad press on the HDI was the 2010 model year and that all issues are resolved. I'm not buying that line just yet.

I think I can still get a 750 EFI this season, so I may just get one of those and wait for the HDI to improve before I need to upgrade again.

Any opinions on that logic? Keep the info coming....This is good stuff and much appreciated.

I would agree with your reluctance to upgrade to a HDI after reading this. If your happy with the 05 and the 750 EFI is the same setup I'd stick with what is known. Is your 05 and EFI model? I'd assume not but I haven't kept up with the latest and greatest on the Avengers (still stuck in the Conquest era). I have heard some second had stories about the newer 750 EFI's and fuel troubles when they get warm. I don't remember all the details but will ask my friend and post if I can get an answer.

[mightymaxIV]

I will offer my opinion one more time on the Admiral:
It's my opinion that most of the so called problems are caused by folks running up and down the trails and using the low range counter rotation feature at speeds greater than Argo intended and over stressing the system.

Pertaining to heat issues as Model Citizen already said the T-20 gets very hot under extreme conditions.

My T-20 had to be rebuilt before my warranty was up-there is no such thing as bullet proof when placed under extreme conditions.

I Love my Admiral transmission and still have not had a problem-after 43 hours of service my machine is in almost perfect condition.

[Model Citizen]

Pertaining to heat issues as Model Citizen already said the T-20 gets very hot under extreme conditions.

My T-20 had to be rebuilt before my warranty was up-there is no such thing as bullet proof when placed under extreme conditions.

I think you might have misunderstood my post somewhat, Dan. Our experience has been that the T-20's, ( only because we had the ability to check them with a heat gun, out of curiosity) can & do get hot. Of course they do. Most people don't drive their machines for 30 miles non-stop at 30+ miles an hour average speeds or climb hills for long stretches when they ride. Our experience has been that the T-20 is an amazing thing with a capital AMAZING. We have never had a problem with our T-20's, with our modified machines or in the past. It's comforting for us to know that they just might be bullet proof.
It would be disappointing to need a rebuild on a new machine, but the best time for anything to go bad is when it's still under warranty, I guess. It's only a problem when/if the same issue keeps recurring after the fix.

Bridget

[Northriver21]

I would agree with your reluctance to upgrade to a HDI after reading this. If your happy with the 05 and the 750 EFI is the same setup I'd stick with what is known. Is your 05 and EFI model? I'd assume not but I haven't kept up with the latest and greatest on the Avengers (still stuck in the Conquest era). I have heard some second had stories about the newer 750 EFI's and fuel troubles when they get warm. I don't remember all the details but will ask my friend and post if I can get an answer.

AlaskaGrizzly, no the 05 Avenger is carburated. It is a good rig, but everyone else in my hunting party are running 750 EFI's with no fuel troubles.

The extra horsepower is evident in the soft stuff with the Argo full of moose and a heavy trailer behind. The 31hp EFI's run off and leave me in the swamps.

The conquest is also a good rig. Before the Avenger I ran a 99 conquest from 99-05. IMO overall the Avenger is better, but there are still things about the conquest I prefer over the Avenger.

What have you decided to do? I am going in to test drive the HDI this week and I will make a decision. Up to now I have purposely not been in to see the HDI because I didn't want to get bit by the new buggy bug.

[hydromike]

Pertaining to heat issues as Model Citizen already said the T-20 gets very hot under extreme conditions. My T-20 had to be rebuilt before my warranty was up-there is no such thing as bullet proof when placed under extreme conditions.

...and as she said, the particular T-20 in question was dismantled, and found to be in fine condition. How did the "hot T-20" card get played, anyway? I missed the congruity between "fuel problems" when the 750 EFIs get warm, and a hot transmission, and (apparently) transmission reliability, if that's what precipitated it. What was wrong with your T-20, anway? What needed to be rebuilt? Was it a leaky plunger, or did a band snap? I spin my 38 year old T-20 (I havent' had it apart... doubt anyone else has) at near 10,000rpm for decent stretches of track, and it gets crazy-hot. It'll probably grenade some day, because it's not bulletproof. The right bullet just hasn't come along, yet.

[mudbug3]

Problems people have posted about on the new Admiral transmissions might be related to the 2010 models? The admiral transmission in my 2011 Argo Frontier now has 56 hours on it , and if you,ve watched any of my recent video,s , all of them have been shot with the machine in low gear. So far I,ve had no problems with my Frontier other than it runs VERY HOT with the hood on. I,m sure that a lot of the heat is caused by the VERY RESTRICTIVE , quite factory muffler.

[AlaskaGrizzly]

AlaskaGrizzly, no the 05 Avenger is carburated. It is a good rig, but everyone else in my hunting party are running 750 EFI's with no fuel troubles.

The extra horsepower is evident in the soft stuff with the Argo full of moose and a heavy trailer behind. The 31hp EFI's run off and leave me in the swamps.

The conquest is also a good rig. Before the Avenger I ran a 99 conquest from 99-05. IMO overall the Avenger is better, but there are still things about the conquest I prefer over the Avenger.

What have you decided to do? I am going in to test drive the HDI this week and I will make a decision. Up to now I have purposely not been in to see the HDI because I didn't want to get bit by the new buggy bug.

Northriver

I talked with my friend and the troubles his partner had was on a carburated Avenger, not a EFI, so I was messed up. Anyways, they were up by Chicken in August and best they could tell the fuel line was close enough to the engine that the fuel was getting too hot and was boiling which caused the engine to run rough. They removed the hood and that helped. Lather they wrapped the fuel line with heat sheild and it helped as well.

It will be interesting to hear what you think of the HDI. I think about checking out the newer rigs (both the Avenger's and the Mudd-ox's) all the time but will be staying with the two Conquests I have for a while. I've got all the stuff I want for them and as long as they keep being reliable I can't justify the cost for an upgrade. And when I do upgrade I'll probably be looking at the used market again.

[AussieMax]

I think it's interesting how when the first Mudd-Ox's had some heat issues causing hot start problems a lot of people made noise on here about how they wouldn't own one until every issue was fixed, yet I see people are fine with buying Argos and running them with the engine cover off and that's ok?? Sounds to me like Argo didn't do enough testing either. At least you never had to run a Mudd-Ox without the engine cover.
All that aside, because a transmission is hot to touch when operating doesn't necessarily mean it is going to cause damage. Even a car trans runs hot under load. How are you all determining what is actually too hot? Are they failing due to heat or is it lubrication issues?

[mightymaxIV]

...and as she said, the particular T-20 in question was dismantled, and found to be in fine condition. How did the "hot T-20" card get played, anyway? I missed the congruity between "fuel problems" when the 750 EFIs get warm, and a hot transmission, and (apparently) transmission reliability, if that's what precipitated it. What was wrong with your T-20, anway? What needed to be rebuilt? Was it a leaky plunger, or did a band snap? I spin my 38 year old T-20 (I havent' had it apart... doubt anyone else has) at near 10,000rpm for decent stretches of track, and it gets crazy-hot. It'll probably grenade some day, because it's not bulletproof. The right bullet just hasn't come along, yet.

Mike the bands were shot and the transmission was making some awful grinding noises, I am not sure what was done because the whole T-20 was sent R.I. to be completely rebuilt. All they told me was that there were signs of some pretty intense heat.

[lamonte Halleran]

Hi there i am in the same boat as you are ,i wish someone from odg would comment on this and answer any questions we have .we only want to get our moneys worth,thats not much to ask for.and word of mouth sells argoes too

[mac]

I talked to an Argo dealer and he told me that you had to order a new Avenger 8x8 with suspended buckets seats when you order it , because the frame is different on the Avenger that takes suspended bucket seats. In other words, if you have an Argo Avenger that did,nt come with suspended bucket seats from ODG,,you can,t install them later on.

Does anyone have a photo of the suspended seat arrangement? I have the 700HD with the bench seat & want to convert to suspended seats,already bought one seat from the John Deere dealership.....

[jays64f85]

Make sure you keep the front axel extension bolts tight, you should keep a wrench under your seat and make sure they are tight all the time, if not they will fail and they are not warrantied.

[mudbug3]

Does anyone have a photo of the suspended seat arrangement? I have the 700HD with the bench seat & want to convert to suspended seats,already bought one seat from the John Deere dealership.....

I have a friend who's also a friend of an Argo dealer. His Argo dealer friend often takes him to ODG to talk with the Argo engineers, and also to see whats new at ODG. I asked my friend before he went to the ODG factory to find out if the suspension seat would be offered as a retro fit for the other Argo models. My friend was told by an ODG engineer that the Argo HDI , SE that comes with the suspended seats takes a completely ' different frame ' and has extra brackets on it to install the suspension seats. In other words , you can't install the factory Argo suspension seat with out the SE frame that it attaches to.

http://www.jacksonholeargo.com/750_HDi_SE_8x8.html