Inner Brng failure (pic)

[Rock Doctor]

Was out Sumerizing the Conquests, and found this on my second axle, inner brng. I did not even notice that it had failed untill I pulled my tracks off and wiggled my axles.




Also noticed on one of my new Outer HDI Brngs that the Brng is loose in the brng carrier. So now I have a little slop in that axle, and it looks like I will have to replace the Brng Carrier to fix it. That's not impressing me right now.

RD

[Old Tucker]

What tracks were you running on the conquest RD

[thebuggyman1]

A little loose can be fixed with green loctite......alot loose can be fixed with JB Weld epoxy, but, that may not be the best option if it's too loose. Worst case, you have to replace it when you replace the bearing next time.

[JoeMeg]

"Also noticed on one of my new Outer HDI Brngs that the Brng is loose in the brng carrier. So now I have a little slop in that axle, and it looks like I will have to replace the Brng Carrier to fix it. That's not impressing me right now.

RD"

The HDI "flange" 1/2's do not "bolt together" like the older style. The "stack height" of the assy is now governed by the thickness of the cork gasket and the part of the lower tub that the outer flange bears against,but not the inner. It locates on the frame rail. When I recently did this really nice upgrade on one axle of my Argo,this was the only "design flaw" that jumped out at me.As with any new application,time will begin telling more stories.

Joe.

[jerseybigfoot]

Strange that the inner brg would fail. Can you tell if the balls or race show spalling? The race looks bright on the outside edge from a thrust load. Maybe you had some kind of thrust overload to fracture the race. Is a new bearing loose in the flanget or flanget deformed? I assume the axle and hub are straight.

[jimsummit]

Had the same thing happen to me, was coming over the bank on a lake shore and hit a stump, tossed me into the windsheild. About two miles down the trail I noticed the front chain jumping the sprocket. The inner bearing was busted and I was 30km in the wilderness. Some friends were 20km ahead at the cabin, so I kept going, the track held the axle in. We swapped in a used bearing and every thing held on the way out. Now I carry spare bearings when I'm heading out in the bush.

[northerner]

make sure u put that "spare" inner bearing in ur tool box Mr Summit, this time i might need it

[smog]

Also noticed on one of my new Outer HDI Brngs that the Brng is loose in the brng carrier. So now I have a little slop in that axle, and it looks like I will have to replace the Brng Carrier to fix it. That's not impressing me right now.

RD

My 2008 Max IV have the same size bearings as the HDI... and as far as I could read about it, it ain't bulletproof.

[Obsessed]

"Also noticed on one of my new Outer HDI Brngs that the Brng is loose in the brng carrier. So now I have a little slop in that axle, and it looks like I will have to replace the Brng Carrier to fix it. That's not impressing me right now.

RD"

The HDI "flange" 1/2's do not "bolt together" like the older style. The "stack height" of the assy is now governed by the thickness of the cork gasket and the part of the lower tub that the outer flange bears against,but not the inner. It locates on the frame rail. When I recently did this really nice upgrade on one axle of my Argo,this was the only "design flaw" that jumped out at me.As with any new application,time will begin telling more stories.

Joe.

sorry to hear that RD..

thats a good point Joe...

the "book" will tell you to use 3 (3 on the front and rear axle bearing extention locations...only one on the middle position) cork gaskets between the outer bearing flange and the body, but that thickness does not allow you to completely tighten the two flanges together...2 cork gaskets will still seal very tightly .... IF.... the bearing is assembled against something solid. as I see it that is the problem retrofitting this design to an older body...if the plastic argo body is approximately a 1/4" thick, that is max thickness for the rear flange to sit in and still provide adequate compression on the bearings outer race...if you simply try to grind away at the body of an older argo, or if there is any distortion from the heat or the grinding process, or if there is any dirt or grease between the metal frame and the plastic body then it is impossible to ever compress the two bearing carrier flanges together to ever get a good grip on the bearing...It may all fit together and look good but the bearing will probably "flop" inside the carriers. (even on a brand new machine i would re-torque the outer flange bolts before dirt and debris ever get down between the frame and body, and after the plastic bodies and cork gaskets have had a chance to "relax" in their initial assembly...this will usually eliminate any initial water leaks on a new machine)

in my experience....the only perfect way to install the new style bearings on any machine, is to simply use one of those "adapter plate kits" which will give a solid and perfect fit for the inner flange to sit in and then use two of the cork gaskets to seal the two bearing flanges together and then use the third gasket on the back of the 1/4" thick steel adapter plate to seal it to the plastic body....this provides a simple and effective way to flush mount the new style bearing to any flat surface on any machine that has the same flange bolt pattern including older Max's with the 62mm bearings... another slight benefit is that the adapter plate will spread the two bearings another 1/4" farther apart...kinda like a little mini bearing extention

hope this helps

tim

[Rock Doctor]

Sorry guys, I had to go to...........ugh, WORK, but I'm feeling better now.
Some interesting thoughts, but I think I have to clarify a bit.

What tracks were you running on the conquest RD

Tucker, this machine had Supertracks on all Winter, the other machine had the 18" Adair Tracks.

[QUOTE=JoeMeg;117298The HDI "flange" 1/2's do not "bolt together" like the older style. The "stack height" of the assy is now governed by the thickness of the cork gasket and the part of the lower tub that the outer flange bears against,but not the inner. It locates on the frame rail. When I recently did this really nice upgrade on one axle of my Argo,this was the only "design flaw" that jumped out at me.As with any new application,time will begin telling more stories.

Joe.[/QUOTE]

Yes and No, I understand what you are saying, and agree with you..........BUT.......... In this case I may be experiencing a possible "One Of" manufacturing flaw?
Here is the issue: The bearing fit to the axle is nice and tight. The bearing itself is great, no slop at all. The Inner and Outer Bearing Carrier halves SEEM fine, but when they are fit tight together, and clamped (no gaskets involved here), the whole carrier assembly is loose/floppy on the outer diameter of the bearing. NONE of the other axle bearing assemblies show ANY sign of being loose in any way. I tried to fit a NEW bearing into the damaged Carriers, same thing. I replaced the Inner Carrier, same thing. I did NOT have a new Outer Carrier, but that is the ONLY piece that is left. I have to assume that the Outer Carrier is the worn/damaged component. This damaged assembly is mounted on my 3rd axle, which in my mind, sees the least amount of stress and impact damage. So I ask myself "Why did this assembly fail out of all of them?"

Hope that is more clear, and I am interested in opinions.

Strange that the inner brg would fail. Can you tell if the balls or race show spalling? The race looks bright on the outside edge from a thrust load. Maybe you had some kind of thrust overload to fracture the race. Is a new bearing loose in the flanget or flanget deformed? I assume the axle and hub are straight.

Jersy, you could very well be correct, or it could be that the 800hrs has finally taken it's toll (If so, I can expect more inner brng failures shortly). I never noticed any sign of Spalling. Axle and hub are straight. I can NOT guarantee that it was not an excessive Thrust that did the damage, but in hindsight, I hope it was.

Now I carry spare bearings when I'm heading out in the bush.

Jim, I carry a spare EVERYTHING with me most of the time, lol. Maybe it's time for a new thread on "SPARE PARTS every Argo Driver should have". It's been a while since we did that. I always like to see what guys pack as far as TOOLS with them as well ( I can do MOST services and maintenance with the tools I carry in my Argo)

My 2008 Max IV have the same size bearings as the HDI... and as far as I could read about it, it ain't bulletproof.

I have not had any of the new HDI Bearings fail in any way.......Yet. All are still solid after a Summer on 24" and a winter of operation on tracks.

sorry to hear that RD..

thats a good point Joe...

the "book" will tell you to use 3 (3 on the front and rear axle bearing extention locations...only one on the middle position) cork gaskets between the outer bearing flange and the body, but that thickness does not allow you to completely tighten the two flanges together...2 cork gaskets will still seal very tightly .... IF.... the bearing is assembled against something solid. as I see it that is the problem retrofitting this design to an older body...if the plastic argo body is approximately a 1/4" thick, that is max thickness for the rear flange to sit in and still provide adequate compression on the bearings outer race...if you simply try to grind away at the body of an older argo, or if there is any distortion from the heat or the grinding process, or if there is any dirt or grease between the metal frame and the plastic body then it is impossible to ever compress the two bearing carrier flanges together to ever get a good grip on the bearing...It may all fit together and look good but the bearing will probably "flop" inside the carriers. (even on a brand new machine i would re-torque the outer flange bolts before dirt and debris ever get down between the frame and body, and after the plastic bodies and cork gaskets have had a chance to "relax" in their initial assembly...this will usually eliminate any initial water leaks on a new machine)

in my experience....the only perfect way to install the new style bearings on any machine, is to simply use one of those "adapter plate kits" which will give a solid and perfect fit for the inner flange to sit in and then use two of the cork gaskets to seal the two bearing flanges together and then use the third gasket on the back of the 1/4" thick steel adapter plate to seal it to the plastic body....this provides a simple and effective way to flush mount the new style bearing to any flat surface on any machine that has the same flange bolt pattern including older Max's with the 62mm bearings... another slight benefit is that the adapter plate will spread the two bearings another 1/4" farther apart...kinda like a little mini bearing extention

hope this helps

tim

Thanks Tim, I also agree with you and Joe. I better explained my particular issue earlier in this post.
Well writen explanation, but something caught my eye. Those adapter plates work for the mid axles as well as the front/back axles? I did not know that, tks for the tip. I have a set for the front/rear axles on my daughters Conquest, but it never even occured to me to try them on the mid axles.

So, all in all, I am still impressed with the new HDI assemblies, but am starting to think this particular issue with this one Outer Carrier may be a flaw in only this one Carrier. ALL the others are still SOLID as rocks.


Hope all this made some kind of sense

RD

[JoeMeg]

This is the first I have heard about "those adaptor plates". Sounds like they are intended to address the issue I mentioned. Very interested in more info on these. Especially if this will allow retro fitting the HDI brg's into the orig. brg extensions on my 2001 Conquest.

Joe.

[rapidroy]

JoeMeg, these will do the upgrade very nicely. the kit comes with gasketed washers for the outer bearing retainers along with all the gaskets and bolts. I've done the HDI bearing upgrade on my 2001 conquest and it sounds as though those plates would address the issue of reaming out the body to get the inner bearing seats to fit against the frame rails. "Obsessed" would be the one to contact for advice.

[Rock Doctor]

This is the first I have heard about "those adaptor plates". Sounds like they are intended to address the issue I mentioned. Very interested in more info on these. Especially if this will allow retro fitting the HDI brg's into the orig. brg extensions on my 2001 Conquest.

Joe.

Yes, you have the older extensions, so the plates will adapt you to the new HDI Bearing Assemblies. No adapter plate is needed if you have the new extensions, like on my 2004Conquest.
My conversion vid shows this quite well.
At some point, I will be making a vid on how the Adapter Plates work on the older extensions, but just have not had the time yet.

RD

[BARE]

I have the adapter plates on my conquest but have not run it very much yet. It is going to my remote camp this week so I will let you know how the upgrade works. I did a little test in a pond to check for leaks and that went great.

[JoeMeg]

ThankYou everyone for the input. Went to Tim's site and am now up to speed on the adaptor plates along with the use of the older style brg extensions. This site and it's members rule.

Joe.