Argo creeps forward at idle

[BW3]

Update: Local B&S mechanic at the last moment backed away from this, no hard feelings from either of us ....., I talked to the Argo dealer in Elliot ME ... So it was dropped off last Friday ... word has it Bad Primary Clutch , so far replacing with new with only a hundred dollars difference from fixing the old and piece of mind (?) of a new one.... I am hoping that after it is installed no other problems other than my dumb fingers playing with adjustments are found on the test runs .....

[BW3]

Update : we were not able to get time enough to load her and take to the B&S mechanic but looking things over we found that the belt is almost touching the exhaust pipe at idle and after a test run the belt and Transmission are hotter than H*ll ... and this is with the fire wall/ foot guard out too....... Still have not been able to get the choke to work at all even with Carb cleaner ...So next stop is to try a different belt an old Bigfoot belt ...Ya ....I know not the right part number but if it is close we have nothing to loss by trying also must remove the Adair tracks so it can be worked on by the B&S guy just so he can move it easier ...the tracks do not push as easy ...

[BW3]

OK ...we have thrown in the towel ...She [IMG][/IMG] goes to the B&S dealer / mechanic a week from Friday .... I am paying for an education ..Again thanks to all that have given help

Bill G.

[BW3]

I have the #808626 type Carburetor on this 23Hp Vanguard mix has little effect of how it runs if to lean have not tried it richer yet , currently the two adjustments are set in the middle ... there it a tink type sound at times we can hear at idle but not sure if this is normal or a pointer of an/the issue ..again time to get at this is limited and frustrating..

Many Thanks all for help ..

Found the noise 9/12/12 today it is the heat shield rattling against the side of the hull it hangs from 3 bolts and nothing out by the lip makes a nice ting ting ting at times ...


Bill G

[Rock Doctor]

Having a high idle is not always a bad thing, although I agree tht you should do a full clean/rebuild on your carb. I have both my Conquests idling high, and they would drive away on me if my Primary was set up in the Stock configuration.
I have installed a shim under the spring in my Primary Clutch in both machines, which slightly increases the engagement RPM of the clutches. Part of the reason I've done this is specifically to be able to maintain a higher RPM at idle for winter operation. This also has other benifits for my riding style/conditions, but I just wanted to throw the idea out there.

RD

[teeko]

If your mixtures are off then your choke may not work very well either. What type of carb is it? Rebuild kits are cheap. And yes, my clutch was making noise when I shook it. That's why I pulled it apart. I would have been able to test drive my machine last weekend if I hadn't taken the primary apart but I don't want to cut any corners now. Too much time and money into it.

[BW3]

That's what bugs us ...engine starts runs ..idles nice but high enough RPM that effects the shifting .... no bogging or hunting RPMS etc etc nice smooth operation through the power curve ..... .....UNLESS float is sticking a bit ? so fuel mix is out of whack? ..????
(thinking out loud here ????)

BG

[trevorakm1]

well John,Kezef, just cleaned the carb on my bigfoot saturday. He also set the mixture and now she purrrrs like a kitten. Prior to this I had to adjust the idle differently it seemed each time I started it. the idle would usually be so high i couldn't shift without putting the choke on to get the motor to settle. If I set it to shift smoothly she wouldn't idle and stall. A thorough carb cleaning and setting of the mixture was all it took. Also when my idle was set higher than normal I could get it to creep if left in gear. Just putting this out there. Seems mixture is key.

[BW3]

Hi Teeko,
Thanks for the input my friend and I are going around and round on this problem ..would a broken spring make any noise at idle ? Hard to hear/tell if we have an odd noise(s) in the front or just normal running noises with this machine as it is very different from my friend 2000 Bigfoot 6X6 ...

Not sure what we have as to causes for this , idle ? Engine starts and runs very well but idle RPMs seem high and as it warms up it does increase a bit but for the most part it is steady .. Governor ? Again engine starts and runs well touch the linkage to the Carburetor and it idles down and RPMS decrease and engine is just at the point of stalling /coughing out to a stop ...does not take much of a touch to cause this either .... Carburetor ? again hard to pin this down as it starts and runs good through the range and idles well but for the issue that the choke does not seem to have any effect ...wonder if the idle RPMs set by the governor is just a bit high at idle and over rides any input by the choke ?

Worst is I/We have very little time to work at this and make any progress .....

Thanks All

Bill G.

[teeko]

Just a thought: Not sure what type of primary you have but a broken spring will cause it to creep. I just pulled apart my primary clutch (salsbury from a 1970 argo) to find 1 out of the of 6 springs was broken. This would have caused similar issues. The secondary would not have to be tweaked if the primary was functioning properly. I can't stress the importance of properly functioning clutches. If adjusted incorrectly it can lead to a variety of issues including enging failure. My snowmobile engine siezed three times in one season until I figured out the clutching was off. The redline rpm should have been 7800 and because of the clutches, was running at 9400. The engine could not withstand the forces generated by the extra rpm and therefore spun the crank out and it came into contact with the engine case and locked up. Good thing for warranties, but it totally wrote the season off. If I can offer any advice, don't cdjust your clutches unless you know exactly what you are doing! Rebuild the primary to spec and see what happens.

[kezef]

wondering if you have taken out both jets mixture screw and cleaned them and the carb really good with air and carb cleaner sounds like carb if the choke has no change to engine if on or off

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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR RRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!

Idle is set as low as I can get it ....

Reset the Governor to factory (?) or at least to the point where the engine will not take off at an idle to see if it can race itself to busting apart

Adjusted the secondary clutch as described above by Tim to where the belt seats about an 1/8th of an inch below the pulley edge ....Take off from a standstill a bit sharper now still will/wants to creep more so in reverse than forward.

It is hard/harder to shift in and out of gear especially H to L or L to H ....I end up going into the other gear and missing neutral all to easy or not coming out of gear all the way ..... just seems like there is just /still to many RPMs on the secondary pulley still ...

I will try to adjust the linkage to the governor and carburetor as a last resort if still no joy or no help/ ideas I will see if the local B&S mechanic can bring the idle RPMs down a bit as I do not have any close dealers to take it too that do not have the attitude that if I did not buy it new or from them then I am on my own ...the only good dealer I have any where near me is in Maine and it would mean I would have to transport the lil beast there and I have not gotten my trailer set up yet or time to get to it ...

HELP Still Needed Here All

TIA...

Bill G

[BW3]

Proving that a little bit of knowledge can be dangerous ...I currently have the governor setting so far out of whack that it aint even funny and having very little time to get back to it to try to fix it ... I think I know how to get it back and corrected (youtube to the rescue) but it takes off and ramps up to a very high RPM at idle now ... that I have to shut her down before it grenades it's self or that is what it sounds like it is doing ...if worst case and I can't get it under control I do have a B&S repair shop near by and will tuck tail and bring her in and have someone with skill and understanding I yet to have put things to right...$$$$$$.... this would be last ditch solution tho ...

[Obsessed]

If I understand Tim my secondary clutch is not adjusted correctly ...belt is tight between the two pulleys after it runs a bit ... Governor rpm is set at to high an idle ..or at idle so after adjusting the position of the governor arm on the the governor shaft as for the secondary pulley the belt does not sit even with one side higher than the other and out of the pulley about and 1/8th of an inch but tight against the primary pulley shaft unless it sets a bit or is moved by hand and backed off . As I understand it I am to back off the two set screws and readjust to contact the shim but to do this I have to run two screws in the threaded hole which will spread the plates apart and remove the belt ...

Still learning things and I know/understand just enough to be dangerous and or bust things up with my shear ignorance...

Bill G.

I have seen the post powdered graphite and will use that next ,....All suggestions or help is greatly appreciated and welcomed RD

Hi Bill,

Just to help clarify...on the newer secondary clutches (the driven clutch mounted to the transmission) they have made it easier to remove the belt by using a single 6.5 mm x2" bolt (i think that is the right size) that threads into the face of the clutch very near the center (same feature that most new snowmobile clutches use) that when it screws in it pushes the rear clutch face back and opens up the gap between the two clutch sheaves and allows the belt to drop down in the clutch an makes it very easy to flip the belt off. This is a nice improvement in the newer Invance clutch and helps compensate for the stiffer secondary spring which is not nearly as easy to get a belt off of.

So...once the belt is removed...you can remove the small bolt and let the clutch faces come back together....then you can adjust that clutch the same way older clutches needed to be shimmed to get the proper belt deflection or fit of the belt...this new system is much cleaner, faster, and easier than removing the clutch, diss assembling it and reshimming it...this new clutch has two small allen screws with a lock nut around them to keep them from moving after an adjustment...these two screws can be turn in evenly to slightly adjust the gap between the two clutch sheaves while at idle or at rest (these two adjustment screws should be even with one another to avoid premature wear on the clutch bushing or a clutch that wobbles...I have often seen these two screws completely out of adjustment with one another from the factory...this is very easy to fix...with the belt removed just back the both out a little bit until you don't feel them touching or pushing anything then you turn them in gently so that they just touch then continue to turn them in evenly as you adjust the gap)

So what does this do... If a belt is too tight it will drag on the primary clutch (or drive clutch that is mounted to the engine) and make the engine labor to start or idle, and also cause the secondary clutch to always be spinning and trying to pull the machine which makes shifting very hard, you might also get a lot more belt squeal at take off because with a tight belt the surface contact of the belt on the primary is very small... But....if the belt is too loose then then it will have a tendenance to jerk a little more on engagement during take off because the engine has to spin faster to close the primary clutch a little more to start to bite the belt (a little like a stall converter in a drag race car) this help create a more positive engagement with less belt slippage but in effect a slightly higher gear (because you are not starting in the lowest possible gear ratio)...on a torquier motor this is hard to even notice ...this is a routine procedure for top performance and for compensating for new belts or slight belt wear durring the life of the belt

Hope this help a little...

Maybe there are some good engine guys on here that can help better explain the engine idle adjustments if the clutch adjustments dont get it running like you want...

Call or email me if I can ever try and help

Tim

[brushcutter]

Sure glad some Argo guys showed up. Wow, I'll bet that's the same thing quad riders say...