Other than the 8x8 tank trainer...any other AATV use in military?

[Tankguy]

I'll also ask over at some other specialized forums, and sum up here, but have you guys seen any other uses of AATV's in the military? Other than recreation? Most of my books are packed away, so I can't get to my U.S. military vehicle history books, but I seem to remember there were a few prototypes and test vehicles...but nothing in actual use, other than the 8x8.

My other interest and hobby is historic military vehicles, it'd be great to be able to tie these two hobbies together....

The demands of military operations invariably render commercial vehicles unsuitable for use "as is". By the time you allow for waterproofing, armament and commo gear, one has exceeded civilian requirements by light years/mass (and we won't even get into military procurement "gold plating"). Vehicle with some degree of origin in Real World designs that you can probably find images of with a little Google-fu include: Chenowth Fast Attack or Advanced Light Strike Vehicle (based, roughly, on their established off-road racing designs), the AAI "Barr Car", the "XR-311", the Teledyne Continental Motors FAV and, the USMC experiments with an M151-based FAV Anyone with time on M151 gunjeeps or M151C recoiless rifle jeeps in a combat environment can attest to how unsuitable such an inadequate series of vehicles the M151s were "outside the wire".

[Tankguy]

Hey TG,

My favorite tank to drive is the 1st generation M60 (not even an a1). The museum has an M551 that I'd love to take for a spin but it's all apart for a restoration and it may never get reassembled.

I hope someday you get that Sheridan drive you want. It was THE sports car of AFV's until the superpowered M1's and Leo 2's and such came out. Prior that, only the lightweight tank destroyers of WWII (M10-M18-M36) had anything like the performance of a Sheridan (or course, they had very narrow tracks and poor protection so had to be quick). The Sheridan had, as I recall, a 4-Sp semi-automatic transmission and the Detroit Diesel 6V-53T (the "T" for turbocharged, essentially the same engine as a Greyhound bus or an M113 but with a forced induction). Typically around 300H.P. in best form. This engine is now installed in M113A3's and it makes a world of difference. A Sheridan in proper shape and tune (not the OPFOR mules they beat to death at NTC) was a kick to flog around an unsupervised area. Spinning donuts, the works. Hottest thing on tracks for it's day. The only thing better than driving tanks is shooting them, but range time is probably not on your agenda. Sheridan's are awesome to fire, however...I've seen the third road wheel lifted completely off the ground under recoil. It is a religious experience inside the vehicle. There is a nice "conduct of fire" video on Youtube you might enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFGhY88hOnI

Some nice recoil shots, in slo-mo here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NurGf1zkEB0

[Tankguy]

That's the one! I've seen one in Danbury, CT too. I believe theirs is a runner. The Danbury museum also has an MBT70.

Did you see the Sgt. York at the AAF? That one is pretty cool...not as roomy in the turret as most would think.

The one in Danbury is a little rough, especially the water barrier, but those don't wear well anyway. Most of ours in VN were removed by the jungle, and occasionally the crews (tenting material and otherwise useless). Typically, they rot out when left outside.
I did not tour the DIVAD, but I know the system as it was the Board President, my boss, the late Col. John Berres that conceived it. Since the Army chose to mount it on an M48 chassis, it was obsolete at introduction, since it couldn't keep up with the forces it was intended to support. Most of the weapon system was automated, so not much space for the crew. MANPADS made concepts like mounted AAA quickly obsolescent, anyway.

I've viewed several MBT70's, some of which are much nicer than the Danbury example. Currently, however, they are not accessable to the public since the Patton Museum at Knox and the APG vehicles have been relocated under BRAC and are tucked away until heaven-knows-when. This project had just been killed when I reported to the Armor Board...ergo the introduction of the already built M60A2's, to everyone's regret.

[George]

That's the one! I've seen one in Danbury, CT too. I believe theirs is a runner. The Danbury museum also has an MBT70.

Did you see the Sgt. York at the AAF? That one is pretty cool...not as roomy in the turret as most would think.

[Tankguy]

Danville! I put a few hundred Sundays before they moved the museum from New York. Now I get down there a few times a year.

I'm due for a visit.

From your description, I was pretty sure about the vehicle/location. There are not many surviving Sheridans (that didn't get gutted at Ft. Irwin for OPFOR vehicles) that I'm not familiar with. For better or worse, the Sheridan has been a part of my life for >forty years. Did Sheridan School, VN with 2/11th ACR, Armor Board to test the first LRF while on active duty. There's a nice one in Charlotte that begs for help, too. AAF's seems to have really sound parts, from my visit with it. I also see why you knew the M60A2 system, I go back with that type, too.

Some assembly required....

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v140/Ascout/AAVSheridanTurret_zpse2b792ba.jpg

[George]

Danville! I put a few hundred Sundays before they moved the museum from New York. Now I get down there a few times a year.

I'm due for a visit.

[Tankguy]

Hey TG,

I wish I could say I served but I have not. I have 22 years as a volunteer at a museum where I've had the opportunity to run all sorts of cool things. My favorite tank to drive is the 1st generation M60 (not even an a1). The museum has an M551 that I'd love to take for a spin but it's all apart for a restoration and it may never get reassembled.

I know the Russian T-72 has sticks. I know the Brits were using sticks after we switched to T-bars...for all I know, the Challenger 2 may also use them.

May I ask which museum? I know some folks at most of them. From your description of the M551, El Monte and Danville leap to mind. The MVTF, a wonderful example, is a great runner, and the late Mr. Littlefiled described it to me as his favorite "ride".

I've never been on a Chally. Have been on a Leo 2 and it had a steering "wheel". Gunner had a restraint bar not unlike an amusement park ride, which made plenty sense given it's cross-country mobility. I have pics but probably shouldn't post them as it was a late model and still sensitive in some places. Russian tanks were pretty primitive until well after the T-54, which didn't even have a turret basket, the crew in fighting compartment still had to run around as the turret traversed in the 'pre-upgrade" versions.

[George]

Hey TG,

I wish I could say I served but I have not. I have 22 years as a volunteer at a museum where I've had the opportunity to run all sorts of cool things. My favorite tank to drive is the 1st generation M60 (not even an a1). The museum has an M551 that I'd love to take for a spin but it's all apart for a restoration and it may never get reassembled.

I know the Russian T-72 has sticks. I know the Brits were using sticks after we switched to T-bars...for all I know, the Challenger 2 may also use them.

[Tankguy]

I drive an m48a5 that also has the steering wheel. The m60a2 has the setup in tankguy's photo.

M48A5 guys are rare....all but 140 went to NG or reserve units and the remainder to Korea to replace the well-worn M60A1's that came back for rebuild. Did you actually serve on the M60A2? I was on the Initial Production Test for that vehicle in 1973, and if you were deployed to Germany on them, you have my sympathy. :-) There is an entire FB page dedicated to M60A2 tankers, BTW.

[Tankguy]

you are exactly right Tankguy. When I first got in there were a few of the gasoline powered M48's left in service. The steering wheel in them reminded me of a wheel in an old aircraft. You also still had the old rangefinder in them that you had to "fly the geese" Quite an antique! We went to the Diesel 48's and then shortly to the 60 series of which the A1 was (and still is) my favorite. Spent many an hour "upstairs" in the cupola.

If your M48's were A2 gassers or older, then the first rangefinder would have been the stereoscopic type, which predates even me. This was replaced on all models from the A2C (I believe) with the coincidence RF, which was standard through M60's until the LRF in the M60A2. The M60A1 was a favorite of mine as well (the M60A3 came out after I left service, same basic vehicle with improved fire control, tank thermal sights at some point, LRF, thermal blanket on gun, grenade launchers and some reliability improvements to engine.

[George]

I drive an m48a5 that also has the steering wheel. The m60a2 has the setup in tankguy's photo.

[Dozerlarry]

you are exactly right Tankguy. When I first got in there were a few of the gasoline powered M48's left in service. The steering wheel in them reminded me of a wheel in an old aircraft. You also still had the old rangefinder in them that you had to "fly the geese" Quite an antique! We went to the Diesel 48's and then shortly to the 60 series of which the A1 was (and still is) my favorite. Spent many an hour "upstairs" in the cupola.

[Tankguy]

Dear Mr. Woods,
I'm sorry, but maybe the passing years have caused you to mis-recall, but your recollections of AFV steering systems is incorrect in almost every detail. The early M48's had an oblong steering wheel (poorly conceived, IMO, too little leverage for good control). All variants of the M60 series used a "T-Bar" (shown below) arrangement (very intuitive and the best system out there, similar to what the M1 Abrams now use, but without the twist-grip throttle). Laterals (or "steering sticks", as they tend to be called by the lay public) were not practical on M48's and M60's as all tanks of those series had an escape hatch in the driver floor with which laterals would have blocked access. The M113's through the A2 were, indeed, steered by laterals. The A3's switched in most cases to a "wheel" arrangement. The M114 also used a "steering bar" or "T-Bar", very similar to the design on the M551 Sheridan. I served on M48A2C's, M60A1's and tested the M60A2, and commanded M113's and M551's in VN. You can easily find links to support my post, but if not, I have lots of pics. Here is a link for the M114 for review.
ACRC M114

Bottom line: NO American Battle Tank has had laterals ("steering sticks") since either the M26 or M46 of the Korean war emergency. After that was the derisively termed "wobble stick" of the M47 (which history forgot and not a moment too soon), followed by the steering wheel of all M48 gens and the T-Bar of all M60 gens. For much the same reason as manual transmissions disappeared from American military vehicles....new, young troops couldn't shift manuals and laterals were just alien to them unless they worked dozers as civvies.

Here is a pic of the last iteration of M60, the A3 (after my service, but same automotively in almost all respects to the M60/m60A1/M60A2. This one at Ft. Irwin in 2006 at the National Training Ctr.:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v140/Ascout/M60A3FtIrwin_zps44cf193a.jpg

[ARGOJIM]

The black Max IV's where made for Russian military I believe, seen them in the racks awaiting shipment, think there was between 10 and 20 ( thinking 19) and nothing exotic about them, Joe from the factory at that time had the black body leftover and think Griffin has it now. I told Jay then he should offer them to the public but tan and red were it then.

[Czechsix]

Wow, a Ti frame. Yeah. That sounds something like the military would want...maybe for EOD.

Good info, thanks. I'll probably need to order some stuff from Recreatives in the future for a project, I'll have to remember to ask about military models. If I can get enough info, I might write an article for Military Vehicles Magazine.