Full hydraulic machine

[Noel Woods]

Buzz:
Well said and true to point. Hydraulics don't have to be driven by an engine in warp drive mode, just high enough to keep the pumps going for the terrain encountered.
A hydraulic machine isn't going to be a racer, most of us don't need a racer (would sure like to have one though). The two Mudd Ox machines I've driven kept up or exceeded the speed of the Max or Argos I've driven. That probably means the most successful machine may have a combination of drive systems.
Whose going to build one?

[wfo]

" Amphibious machines aren't designed to go fast anyway,"
MINE IS, maybe thats why everybody buys side X sides.
maybe thats why people won't buy them , THEIR TO DAMN SLOW.
MANUFATURES NEED TO STEP IT UP AND MAYBE THEY COULD KEEP UP

[Nick O.]

" Amphibious machines aren't designed to go fast anyway,"
MINE IS, maybe thats why everybody buys side X sides.
maybe thats why people won't buy them , THEIR TO DAMN SLOW.
MANUFATURES NEED TO STEP IT UP AND MAYBE THEY COULD KEEP UP

I don't know. Every trail ride I go on and I become the leader, I lose most the group without fail. Even at Ashtabula where there isn't anything difficult, I'll turn around and see a few people out of a few dozen. Granted I get bored and get us lost but this crowd doesn't really go fast about anything. They like cruising around with a beer and conversing. The Max with the 29hp I ran was just idling through the trails following a group.

I would compare us more to the 4x4 crowd. They like slow and articulate trails, and most the fun is being there with friends and family. RZR's and such are most seen with quads flying through the trail as fast as possible. Every type of machine has its own niche. I see amphibs most comparable to slow tanks that will dominate the trail rather than an Ariel Atom for the dirt.

[amphibious drew]

I can't help but chuckle when I see Nick, who has 2 racing photo's in every post he makes, talk about how we like to go slow all the time. I'm not sure that's why you loose the pack when your leading. I would think it has more to do with the fact that every driver seems to attempt every obstacle on the trail, and if 1 person gets stuck, everyone else wants a go at it. Then it turns into a winch-fest. Of course most of us like to challenge ourselves with crazy mud holes and very technical maneuvers, and yes many of us like to bs and have a beverage. We also like to go fast! All the purpose built racers are proof of that. I have machines for different uses, but always thought a big 4-stroke springer was the best all around machine. They are great at speed, and can crawl better than almost anything. I was planning on saving my pennies to spring a machine through whipper, but since he seems to be out of the springer production business, I don't know if I will ever manage to obtain a springer. I firmly believe that a sprung factory Max could be manufactured and sold for around the price of a well equipped razor. The machine would dominate the competition in off-road capabilities and at least be more comparable in the speed trail aspect. If this was achieved, we would see our hobby grow exponentially.

[Nubs]

I see it as pretty much two completely different Machine User's. The People i know that live and work in the bush or off the track a bit want something that's going to do a hard day's work over and over, Built like a skid steer hydro. A belt driven machine will never do that for very long without always replacing parts . I have re geared 2 bobcat's over the yrs so they would have a road speed of 20+ mph @ 1600R's to run between farms faster. They lost 1/2 there torque also but I think that AATV's just don't have the weight and or traction to stall or over heat any kind of hydro set up.

There room and a need for both is My opinion..

[Buzz]

when you actually out there using a hydraulic machine over long distances and mixed terrain, you really begin to appreciate to convenience and maneuverability of a hydrostatic drive. Trying to turn a differential transmission (even a "steering" version) can really be a pain if you have long distances to go that are off-camber. If a machine is built right, they are truly a joy to operate if you need it to do a little bit of everything. The current class of machine available addresses the old complaints.

[rcn11thacr]

I believe if someone made a "modern" amphib that had a low and high range gear box good enough to work where we 6x6ers go in the rough yet was reasonably fast enough to get where we want to go without the driver and it's occupants becoming starry-eyed from boredom, would have the best chance at securing the market. Everyone gets google eyes seeing us go where others can't go but none of them want to have more grey hair by the time the trip to and from the "mud spot from hell" is over. I still think a modern "high" tub that will clear big tires with tracks, built from the single sprocket design that provides power to the track from the front or rear, along with a "good" ( read; fast as most modern golf carts) multiple speed gear box would win in the sales department hands down. This design simplifies our complex multi chain drive units. Honestly, most people are scared to death of the repair bill when they see how much maintainance our toys require. Simply put, make them more reliable, easier to fix and maintain, and somewhat faster. It's not that easy or everyone would do it, yea yea yea I know. BS. With all of the modern drivetrain options available, there is no reason for still using so many sprockets and lengths of chain. Get rid of the majority of the items that wear out quickly. Use a small driveshaft or u joint type item that has more reliability and is less likely to wear out after it's covered in dirt, grease, and oil.

Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now. Whew.

[kghills]

" Amphibious machines aren't designed to go fast anyway,"
MINE IS, maybe thats why everybody buys side X sides.
maybe thats why people won't buy them , THEIR TO DAMN SLOW.
MANUFATURES NEED TO STEP IT UP AND MAYBE THEY COULD KEEP UP

I can see where it would be very advantageous to run at very high speeds if you were doing any desert riding like these guys were a week ago.

But they only had purpose built vehicles with like 21" of travel not a retrofitted AATV with 6". My point is that I think the market for an AATV, especially a skid steer machine to travel at extremely speeds may not exist. I think there is probably a medium speed in there like say 20-30mph that would be considered acceptable and maybe a commercial machine with full hydraulics a speed a the lower end, but much less than 20 is probably too slow. WFO, you do realize that once your suspension is fully compressed the next thing to compress is your spine. At a high rate of speed this force is amplified as the suspension bottoms out and can be extremely painful, and it happens faster the faster you are driving. Be careful!

I can't help but chuckle when I see Nick, who has 2 racing photo's in every post he makes, talk about how we like to go slow all the time. I'm not sure that's why you loose the pack when your leading. I would think it has more to do with the fact that every driver seems to attempt every obstacle on the trail, and if 1 person gets stuck, everyone else wants a go at it. Then it turns into a winch-fest. Of course most of us like to challenge ourselves with crazy mud holes and very technical maneuvers, and yes many of us like to bs and have a beverage. We also like to go fast! All the purpose built racers are proof of that. I have machines for different uses, but always thought a big 4-stroke springer was the best all around machine. They are great at speed, and can crawl better than almost anything. I was planning on saving my pennies to spring a machine through whipper, but since he seems to be out of the springer production business, I don't know if I will ever manage to obtain a springer. I firmly believe that a sprung factory Max could be manufactured and sold for around the price of a well equipped razor. The machine would dominate the competition in off-road capabilities and at least be more comparable in the speed trail aspect. If this was achieved, we would see our hobby grow exponentially.

A suspension to fit an AATV that's light, narrow, simple, made with common parts and inexpensive?

Next you'll want it to be full Hydraulic and fast I suppose.

Keith.

[kghills]

when you actually out there using a hydraulic machine over long distances and mixed terrain, you really begin to appreciate to convenience and maneuverability of a hydrostatic drive. Trying to turn a differential transmission (even a "steering" version) can really be a pain if you have long distances to go that are off-camber. If a machine is built right, they are truly a joy to operate if you need it to do a little bit of everything. The current class of machine available addresses the old complaints.

I believe if someone made a "modern" amphib that had a low and high range gear box good enough to work where we 6x6ers go in the rough yet was reasonably fast enough to get where we want to go without the driver and it's occupants becoming starry-eyed from boredom, would have the best chance at securing the market. Everyone gets google eyes seeing us go where others can't go but none of them want to have more grey hair by the time the trip to and from the "mud spot from hell" is over. I still think a modern "high" tub that will clear big tires with tracks, built from the single sprocket design that provides power to the track from the front or rear, along with a "good" ( read; fast as most modern golf carts) multiple speed gear box would win in the sales department hands down. This design simplifies our complex multi chain drive units. Honestly, most people are scared to death of the repair bill when they see how much maintainance our toys require. Simply put, make them more reliable, easier to fix and maintain, and somewhat faster. It's not that easy or everyone would do it, yea yea yea I know. BS. With all of the modern drivetrain options available, there is no reason for still using so many sprockets and lengths of chain. Get rid of the majority of the items that wear out quickly. Use a small driveshaft or u joint type item that has more reliability and is less likely to wear out after it's covered in dirt, grease, and oil.

Ok, I'll get off my soapbox now. Whew.

I will agree with both your opinions on this but add the one word that I think keeps anything that is or could be produced from taking hold in the market currently. "Expense" to do it right just seems to cost at least twice as much as non hydraulic options. That's what I'm seeing at least. My Coot2 is cool but I am told the hydraulic pump and motors are cheap and that's why it's noisy and needs to run at 3800RPM all the time.

Keith.

[Noel Woods]

]I believe if someone made a "modern" amphib that had a low and high range gear box good enough to work where we 6x6ers go in the rough yet was reasonably fast enough to get where we want to go without the driver and it's occupants becoming starry-eyed from boredom, would have the best chance at securing the market. Everyone gets google eyes seeing us go where others can't go but none of them want to have more grey hair by the time the trip to and from the "mud spot from hell" is over. I still think a modern "high" tub that will clear big tires with tracks, built from the single sprocket design that provides power to the track from the front or rear, along with a "good" ( read; fast as most modern golf carts) multiple speed gear box would win in the sales department hands down. This design simplifies our complex multi chain drive units. Honestly, most people are scared to death of the repair bill when they see how much maintainance our toys require. Simply put, make them more reliable, easier to fix and maintain, and somewhat faster. It's not that easy or everyone would do it, yea yea yea I know. BS. With all of the modern drivetrain options available, there is no reason for still using so many sprockets and lengths of chain. Get rid of the majority of the items that wear out quickly. Use a small driveshaft or u joint type item that has more reliability and is less likely to wear out after it's covered in dirt, grease, and oil. "

















Got a simple drivetrain machine coming down the pike, cvt tranny, rear wheel drive powering tracks. More to come.

[rcn11thacr]

Noel, what kind of Borg Warner transmission is that and what is it out of? I also think its a read end assy out of a gas golf cart.

[rcn11thacr]

"Expense" to do it right just seems to cost at least twice as much as non-hydraulic options. That's what I'm seeing at least.
Keith.

Yes i know you were primarially talking about hydros here but i found my soap box again

Keith,
You have so much more experience with these amphibians than I do. With that said, when a supplier has provides a sellable item they gain market share and with that comes profit. If the companies that make these 6x6/8x8’s don’t produce a product that captures the imagination of the market they are selling to, then any part will cost too much. I’m sure you’ve noticed that many forms of atv’s are selling in the +20K range. When an amphib is built that can give reasonable ground speed, be modernized enough to provide reliability that does NOT require its owner to wrench on it every time you go play, it will sell MUCH better than the models available now. Currently most of the guys that buy these amphibians have enough knowledge to fix, modify, and repair these vehicles, we see proof of that every day here on 6x6 world. I’d lay money that the lions share of people that buy all of the “other” atv’s have little to no mechanical experience. They bought the atv that they could have fun with and not have to fix all of the time. I bet they wanted one of ours, but when they found out all of the “down side” to owning one, they took their cash to the dealer across town that sold an item that didn’t require the owner to be ASE certified or otherwise or have a mechanically inclined nature. Ask Polaris, Honda, etc… how they do it. I can tell you they did it by providing an item that appeals to the mass atv market with reliability, fun factor, and price. These companies know that fine line they walk (when they were a young company and still today) that provides enough profit to continually keep in front of their competitors through an R&D section/department that made parts that don’t wear out or require to be constantly maintained for it to perform as advertised. Has anyone making our atv's thought of hiring new blood to fill the chairs of their current R&D team? I think we all know that answer. Making an item like I’m talking about will require cash just as the ones being manufactured now do. If guys like us can figure out how to do it, so can they. In reality the cost of doing business the wrong way, cost just enough to never get you ahead of where you are today. Modernize or go the way of the dinosaur (or at minimum, do just enough to keep your nose above water). Oh, wait a minute! Amphibious manufactures already do that…




I guarantee every single one of us would want a vehicle as I’ve described above. So would those people that can’t go where we go without getting stuck. Just my 2 cents.

[Nubs]

I've used transaxles like this alot over the yrs

I just sold this one yesterday, I've had over 70hp on them with no problems

[Nubs]

[john swenson]

with that trans and axle, it looks like a winner. many bigger homebuilt tracked machines i,ve seen on u tube use small car trannies and rear ends, braking one side of the rear end axle for turning. one even shows a guy with a setup like that and it looks like he only has a small 20 h.p. lawnmower type engine powering it. just a cog drive each side powering the tracks. it is a cool design. johnboy