6x6 for snowmobile trail dragging/grooming

[mpilihp]

Hello all, im looking for something to groom snowmobile trails with that is more comfortable than a snowmobile and powerful and has enough traction in snow to tow a large drag.

Will a 6x6 such as an Argo be able to do this with tracks? Will it have enough weight to get good traction?

Do any of these rigs have heat ?

Thanks

~ Phil

[Mike]

Hi Phil, welcome to the site. Most newer 6x6 and 8x8 ATVs will probably be fine for grooming trails. Before I stick my foot in my mouth though, what size and weight drag are you looking to pull? How deep, on average, is the snow you where you typically ride?

An Argo can be outfitted with a full enclosure and while heat may not be an option, from what I hear from members on the site, you don't need it. It will stay warm enough inside just from the heat of the engine. If not, you can always add a 12 Volt resistive heater.

[soutthpaw]

Okay, I gotta throw my 2 cents in for a tracked machine like my PPT or a Cushman Trackster... or put tracks on the 6x6 or 8x8. as for grooming think about weight distribution for dragging. you are probably want to get some weight up front to offset some of the load. look at either a front engine or front seating machine like the max 4. a rear engine machine may want to pop wheelies esp on hills with the drag pulling the rear down

[number1cas]

Just a couple of notes here

the Argo has a front engine
Argo's also have an optional forced air throught a rad heater available, heat would not be a problem when working it like pulling a load, in fact you would likely have to leave a door open to cool things down a bit.

However I do not think an Argo will be large enough for a big groomer, something smaller or a cross country ski trail groomer would be no problem. As mentioned, it would depend on the size of groomer. We used to use an Alpine twin track sled to groom years and years ago, now they have a Bombardier one like ski hills use.

[JoeMeg]

I'm not well versed on the snowmobile trail stuff but I do have a 2001 Argo Conquest. Argo uses a decent volume blower to take in fresh air and duct it to the brake discs to cool them. After this duty it is left to find its own way out of the engine compartment/machine. With the windshield and convertable top up,believe me, the LAST thing you'll need is MORE heat in the passenger compartment. Joe.

[mpilihp]

Hi Guys thanks for the response and your input. I am looking to use it to groom local trails using a 4' wide by 12ft long drag, its too heavy for our skandic WT sled. It can pull it but if you stop sometimes you cant start up again with it. Good point to look for one with a front mount engine for weight distribution.

Im curious, how wide is an argo 6x6 with tracks on it? We would not be going out with the drag until the trail had been ridden on so I dont think I would need the really wide ones I saw some utube videos of for riding on powder. Also sounds like there is ambient heat coming off of the engine so could be nice enough inside compared to on a sled.

Thanks

~ Phil

[moonbuggy]

I think perhaps I have some experience that might help. I have been involved in commercial level snowmobile trail, nordic ski and alpine ski grooming for about 30 years. I owned and operated two Tucker 2000 Diesel groomers as a contractor for 12 years in the Cascades, put a 4 stroke 32 hp engine in a Cushman Trackster, and now have an 08 Avenger 750.

The bottom line is that none of these small machines have what it takes to pull a big heavy drag for very long or very far. Some reasons not to use an Argo:

1)Brake steering; Argo wants operators to angle-steer bends, not smooth radius turns.
2)Brake steering doesn't work very well on full sized snowcats- overheating, lousy turning ability in heavy snow, very high wear rates- near total misery. It's very old-school in the 2-track snowcat world.
3)There is no positive toothed engagement with the track. If the load is too high the tires slip within the track.

A lot would depend on Terrain, Distance, and Snow Conditions. If you are grooming short trails on level ground in cold light snow and not much of it, a small machine will do some grooming. On the other hand, if you are hoping to groom long distances, hilly terrain, bad moguls, and sometimes deep heavy (wet) snow, forget the little rigs.

The Cushman Trackster made a slightly better groomer than the Argo. It is hydostatic, so it can steer a smooth radius turn. Both tracks are always powered, so traction is better. Also, there is toothed engagement between track and drive sprocket, so slippage cannot develop. Unfortunately the original engine in a Trackster is crap and an expensive conversion must be done. I don't like the power loss of the Honda conversion.

Regarding weight distribution: Argos are all front end heavy- drive train and operator are forward. (Trackster is the same) Observe youtube vids carefully in both water and deep snow- the behavior is the same- nose down. Grooming drags come in a lot of styles and types- not all of them impose weight on the towing equipment. In deep snow, weight in the back markedly improves performance of these machines. I'm making the assumption that tracks are being used. I'd venture a guess that a 6x6 would have a very hard time moving a 4' x 12' drag, and an 8x8 would struggle- and wear out fast.

The Trackster has a hard time pulling a typical Nordic groomer of 6 feet wide and about 3 feet long such as a Tidd Tech. It leaves OK results on the flats but cannot pull such a groomer up much of a hill. The Avenger has the weight and power to yard such a groomer around- depending on conditions. However, Nordic groomers don't do a darn thing to the moguls that sledders want removed. When you steer a corner with the Argo, you either hold the steering brake on for a smooth corner or angle steer and end up with an unusable trail!

The Avenger is 6 feet wide with the rubber tracks. I'm currently welding up a plow blade which, like the factory blade, is 81" wide.

-- Roy

[soutthpaw]

Good info there Roy, Just wondering about the Trackster conversion as I have ran a couple of them on search and rescue team years back. Does the bigger engine give more top speed or does that require a lager pump and did you change pumps.... My PPT has clutch/brake steering and seriously considering going Hydraulic with bigger engine.... will prob buy an old zero turn mower for parts

[argonamur]

In regards to pulling a gratter or rig to smooth out snowmobile trails, unless you wanna spend the big $$$$ and equip yourself with what the clubs use, the next best thing would be a tracked ARGO hands down. You get the mobility in any snow condition and yoou have ample pulling power to pull any size basic groomer for the trails. I use an old king size metal bed frame with chains welded on it just to loosen up the track and smooth things out at night so it has a chance to set overnight.

[Castro]

I also use an old bed, i load it with rocks and tow it up my
Steep driveway to grate it.

[Rick B]

Hello, I'm new here but have spent about 30 years grooming snowmachine trails here in Alaska... (we call them snowmachines up here), I have had wide track's, a trackster, 3 different Argo's, a DMC 1450, and an LMC 1500, from what I have learned alot of what you can pull with any machine depends on how the drag is designed, we started with Alpines and homemade 2x6 drags and went from there. You will never have a one pass end result with a smaller rig then say a Pisten Bully and a large manufactured fully hydraulic drag but you can get the job done, be warm, and have a blast doing it. The Shop Industrial manufactures Mogul Master trail groomers and is also a Argo dealer, they build a ULMPB 8 series that is designed to be pulled with an Argo, it is a 6'x8' multi blade drag, I built a drag based off of that model and pulled it with my 2005 Avenger, it did a very nice job and corners are not a problem, the drag is set up with a linear actuator on the tongue with a floating link, this allows you to run the drag at the proper cutting depth and lift and carry the drag on the packing pan at the rear of the drag when breaking trail, it also makes the tongue part of the overall lenght of the drag. A tracked up Avenger will drag a lot more then a snowmachine, one thing to keep in mind is to start early in the season, get a base established and stay on top of it. Have fun!!

[argonamur]

and at last if all else fails.....just use one of these!
DSC00055.jpg

P.s. this Machine is actually for sale by me! Located in Quebec, Canada!

Its a completely re-done sidewalk cleaner from the city ! Blast in the Snow! the one thing more fun than my Argo lol

[Lobsterdan]

How much do you want for this machine?Is it a ford staight 6 cyl?

Daniel Belliveau
506 866 7979

[mpilihp]

Hello again, I am back looking at/considering a tracked vehicle for grooming snowmobile trails. I have several years grooming now under my belt using Skandics and pipe drags. We got rid of all but one mogul master drag as they are too heavy for the skandics and for our conditions for the most part a pipe drag works great. from reading what folks here stated and what Ive read on other threads a Trackster may be a good option. Our trails for the most part are 5-6ft wide so it should fit through everywhere, this would allow getting the entire trail in one pass with a wider drag instead of having to do multiple passes.

I understand the stock engine in them is junk and most replace them with a honda 24hp 4stroke engine. Does anyone know how well these pull? IE will it have enough power ie in comparison to a 550cc fan cooled snowmobile engine? The Skandic has enough power in low range with the 550 to pull a 6ft drag but doesnt have the width to do safely or the tracksion. .

Im also curious how wide and how much track on a Trackster is making contact with the ground? Also what is the lug height?

Thanks

~ Phil