Cryogenic treatment for axels?

[vanmeterj1]

Ok kids, bright Idea Time... I'd like to hear from some of the seasoned machinists on this one...

I have been working with some materials that we use around work and we have been looking at Cryogenic treatment in various applications. After talking with a couple companies that perform this treatment I had the thought that it seems like there may be room for discussion of treating AATV axels.

The treatment is as simple as it sounds. Much like heat treating but is on the other end of the spectrum. If you take steel and CRYO treat it this rearranges the molecular structure and increases it's durability and life span. The extreme cold compresses the molecules and thus creating the Re-alignment much like that of heat but obviously in a different direction.

I have one company that will do all six of my axels for 70$ +shipping So is the cost worth trying? not sure, I wanted to know if anyone has tried it or put paper to pen on this one before.

[6X6]

Hi:
Well, there's no free lunch, so if this is hardening them, while they will be more resistant to bending or wearing, they will break more easily in a hard impact. I'd be curious as to what properties are changed and how. Do you have any further info?

[smog]

and the end result is ?

I would hate to snap an axle in the middle of nowhere. and it can happen with heat treated parts as it make them more brittle.

do people really have problems with properly sized and modern axles ?

[wfo]

when that procedure is done it dosent make it brittle it makes it
tougher...it would be like adding more carbon to steel, it can still be bent
but it take more pressure to bend it..so for 75 bucks i think it would
be a good idea to just try and see..

[vanmeterj1]

Here is a little better break down, Insert WIKI joke and disclaimer for 100% acuracy of all included information here

Cryogenic hardening - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I've got a call set with the shop we are working with later this week. THey are going to have one of the engineers in to help us fill in the blanks on our applications for work. I will slip in some questions about AATV applications.

[mark m.]

This procedure is typically done for tool steels (high carbon content) where as the steel used for a typical AATV axle is of low to medium carbon content. Precision tools and gages benefit from this so they stay very dimesionally stable over time.

If done to our axles there may be no benefit at all. The steel treatment to look for is one that provides a high yield strength.
All steel will bend. It's how far it will bend before it "yields" meaning it will not spring back to it's original position. Think of a spring for example.

[rdr]

if they will do them for 75 bucks i would it works as long as they finsh them with the right process . thes cryo will not help . u have to heat treat them to and finsh n them . robbie found a good link to explane it and whats requied after it Cryogenics - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[vanmeterj1]

The article i found was also a Wiki on it. Funny the company that we are looking at using here is 300 Below, I didn't want to shamelessly plug them but they do seem to have an extensive field of knowledge to work from. I know that they are currently using this process for late model GTO' axels to prevent them from twisting.

As the process explains it is an extension of heat treating in that it continues to quench below room teperature to very low temps. if 300 or so down to 70 is good then it stands to reason that 300+ to 300- is an exotic extension of that process.

[rdr]

it's been years , when it first cam out fourwheller did a thing on it . thats what i was trying to rember it and what the artical said .i knew there was more to it than jest droping ur axels in liq nig . robbie

[wfo]

from what i remember a company called CTM told me years ago that they were experimenting with that
process and they said each type of metal was a different process, key things were type of steel ,thickness
and what was going to be used for, for proper time steel was exposed to the cooling process...COOL STUFF

[mudNmallards]

I would recommend to all who want the highest level of reliability and performance out of their machines to have all critical parts deep cryo treated (below -300°). The results will amaze you. I have been doing it for my personal machines for over 20 yrs and for clients longer than that along with participating in the controlled destructive testing of prototypes and the subsequent failure analysis.
You should consider the shafts, chains, sprockets, engine parts, transmission parts, springs and clutches/brakes especially during any major rebuild.
But like everything else, CT is not a magic bullet or cure all miracle thing- there are some caveats that must be understood beforehand. I emphasize that point because after almost 35 yrs of doing it, I have been involved with the technology since back when proper results were more “accident” arrived by throwing bones around the soak tanks and doing funky dancing rather than by scientifically derived controlled processes that deliver consistent repeatable results. Also, some of the claims by the treatment facilities were simply out of the reach of their equipment.
There is no substitute for having the right size/right metal composition/right load factors for the application along with the right heat treating AND quenching ( and preferably post treatment shot peening when applicable). A lot of people think (because CT salesmen don’t tell BOTH sides of the story) that CT can make a ½” shaft pull the load of a ¾” shaft or that your part now has a big red “S” on it. Neither of those are true. CT augments those aforementioned factors ( by orders of magnitude in many cases) but it does NOT replace them.
Proper maintenance is still as important as it was before although most people will notice a decrease in the frequency of needing it. (especially on chain tensioning, brake wear, sprocket wear, pulley wear and bearing adjustments)
Used parts- in many cases, used parts ( because they are already stressed in the actual application and work hardened/seasoned) will benefit more than virgin used parts BUT there is an important consideration BEFOREHAND. IF the part has internal fracturing/cracking/deformation that has been mechanically induced then the CT process will probably make it break faster. Any used part (metal) should be salt bathed and at a minimum magna fluxed or magnetic particle tested ( for open cracks) and either ultrasonically/ X-rayed or eddy current tested (internal breakage) before considered for treatment.
Shaft treatment in relation to shaft breakage
I’ve only busted 2 of my own and those were in CJ’s but I have been involved with hundreds in industry from the failure size and having them analyzed up to controlled destructive testing where we take big 1000 hp motors and spin them super fast then apply the magnetic brake. ( that’s a sight to see- just be behind protective shielding) What actually happened and what anecdotally happened to the naked eye are light years apart.
Its almost impossible for any machine to (in a single catastrophic event) “break” a shaft that was properly designed for it. Here’s what happens.
People put stronger power plants in there (increased torque and RPM) and bigger tires (overhung load)
The overhung load creates a flex described in statics/properties of materials as a top side stress and a bottom side compression at the same time. (bending the same metal both ways at the same time) This created micro fractures in the grain of the steel. Then you add the torsional stress (circular) from goosing it and the resistance of the ground. Then there is the waves of torque coming from the driver (in a vehicles case- the drive train). This process over time shreds the grainy guts of the shaft. It’s a matter of time and the right rut to jump over then the shaft will break. It’s a cumulative effect.
When we x-ray and UT the shafts and then put them under the microscope its obvious and jumps right out at you. I have never seen a single one event failure in my career and only know of a few who have. ( that have the data to back up the claim)
That’s the good news because those stresses are what CT enhances the steel against.
When they say it makes the shaft “stronger” that’s somewhat a misunderstanding between the technical literal definition and the common conversational definition. It does not make the steel “stronger” in the sense that if the steel would shear at say 1000 ft lbs of torque it now moves to 5000. It makes it stronger in the sense that the inherent strength of the steel is now capable of utilizing 95+% of its capability rather than 60% in its untreated state. So if the baseline was a 30” tire with a 40 hp motor and you went to a 33 and a 50 (basically 10-20% increase)- you are probably OK because you are within the percentage of available strength of a good properly treated shaft. You go to a 50” with a 75hp motor- you need bigger shafts ( and treat them too)
If you decide to go with CT, make SURE the lab is ISO certified, does deep CT ( below 300), has 24 hr soak times and tempers after the process to hold the CT qualities.
The end results will impress you and it will be well worth the money.

[North Country Tough]

This is very informative and very true,we have a shop not far from where I live and is a fella I know that has had a cryo place for years, the military send a ton of stuff to him,trust me it works well.N.C.T

[smog]

a fella I know that has had a cryo place for years, the military send a ton of stuff to him,trust me it works well.N.C.T

Not sure the Canadian army equipment can be cited as an example of reliability


... but it's not from lack of maintenance ...

[North Country Tough]

Not sure the Canadian army equipment can be cited as an example of reliability


... but it's not from lack of maintenance ...

LOL Smog we more or less keep in the air,land and sea what no one else wants,so we need all the help we can get.

[guyfox]

LOL Smog we more or less keep in the air,land and sea what no one else wants,so we need all the help we can get.

NCT

As a former member of the CF we have done so much with so little for so long we are now capable of doing everything with nothing. While in Afghanistan after 911 we had to take an old runway sweeper that was plowed into a scrap pile and used it for almost 7 months as out main source of transport in the Ammo Sect.