Mudd-Ox vs the Argo HDI - Steering and Drive Superiority

[ktm950se]

Greetings,
I found this site by chance, after looking for more forums that discuss tracked ATVs, as I have a Tatou 4S'd Can-Am 800. Wow! I had no idea 6x6s and 8x8s were so impressive.
Now that I've spent many hours reading these forums, and reviewing many, many videos, I have 1 question. Is it just my perception, or does the Mudd-Ox really traverse tight and rough terrain better than the new Argo HDI? From the videos I've seen, it sometimes appears that the Mudd-Ox operator in such a situation is able to turn his machine without stopping the forward rotation of the inner turning-side wheels of his machine, and therein, has driving force from both sides of the machine to propel him forward, whereas the Argo driver needs to stop the forward drive of his inner turning-side wheels to turn as tightly, and therefore loses forward momentum as the machine is being dragged forward by the outside turning-side wheels acting against these locked inner turning-side wheels.

With the available option of a diesel engine, the Mudd-Ox is a more attractive choice for me over the Argo (as I highly value engine durability), but the purchase price of the Mudd-Ox is concerning. In the end, I can overlook the higher cost of the Mudd-Ox *IF* it really is able to traverse tight and rough terrain better than the Argo.

I welcome your learned thoughts on this matter.

Sincerely,

ktm950se

[mightymaxIV]

KTM- I have a Argo 650 HD with the Admiral transmission and I have Had the chance to ride with Davids Mudd Ox with Adair tracks. There is no question that the Mudd Ox is more heavy duty and is able to make adjustments on the trail almost immediately. The Argo Admiral Transmission has several limitations
-one it heats up in low range if you run it more than 15 minutes
-two if you run it down the trail in low range and turn left or right it starts the counter rotation and that will normally produce a very annoying popping sound.
-Mudd Ox has a big disadvantage in swim speed because of the weight

That being said both machines are great on the trail with the advantage to industrial type heavy duty components going to the Mudd Ox

Anyone buying an Argo with the Admiral transmission needs to understand that it is true 6 or eight wheel drive and will out perform almost every other system but the Mudd Ox gives absolute control and ability to go forward and backward and at times this can be an advantage.

Tough choice-you need to drive both machines before you made a decision.

[mudbug3]

ktm950se

I owned a 2010 ( dealer demo )Mudd-OX with the Adair swimming tracks on it since last october, and I recently sold it to buy a new 2011, Argo Frontier that has the Admiral transmission in it. After owning the Mudd for several months and driving it through the same trail ,swamp, and mud sections that I now drive my Argo Frontier through, I really miss the instant ability to change directions at a moments notice. I also liked how I could make very small corrections by moving backward and forward instantly to reposition the tub in very techical situations. Since the Mudd-OX does,nt have a transmission in it ,you never have to stop when you put it into forward ,reverse or high or low gear like I now do with my Argo Frontier. I,ve now been in trail situations where having the extra power and added torque to counter rotate out of a mud lane, that had high sides made by 4 wheelers , would have been very easy with the Mudd-OX because I could instantly counter rotate the tub to reposition myself flat again. In my Argo Frontier I was forced to drive out at a very steep angle side ways until I almost flipped the tub. This stopped me from driving out in my Argo. I knew I could have done this with the Mudd-Ox that I used to own. Even though the Argo will counter rotate in low gear, it won,t do it if an extreme load is placed on the Admiral transmission. If you drove down a steep bank into the water , the heavier weight of the Mudd-Ox , plus the added weight of the driver in front , will cause water to easily pour over the front sides. This makes you choose your point of entry into the water a lot more carefully. The lower weight of my Argo Frontier enables it to float up a whole lot faster, even though at extreme angles it will also take on water through the hood vents on each side. The V bottom of the Mudd-Ox makes it sit very low in the water, and this really slows the water speed when compared to my Argo Frontier in the water. The V bottom tub of the Mudd-Ox is a big plus though when driving though thick mud ,because there is a lot less drag when moving forward or backward. In certain swamp and muddy trail conditions my lighter Argo Frontier will get moved side to side, where the heavier Mudd-Ox that I used to own would stay right where I pointed it. My Argo Frontier is also easier to clean and work on it than the Mudd-OX that I used to own. With the multiple fans that the Mudd-OX has, it also ran a whole lot cooler than my Argo Frontier does. In hot climates the new Argo,s with Admiral transmission run a whole lot hotter than the older Argo,s that have open differentials. The Argo is cheaper in the long run to replace parts on when compared to the more heavier componants that are on the Mudd-Ox. The added There is no perfect machine.

[thebuggyman1]

Counter rotation, one side tires going forward while the other side rotates in reverse, is a very useful function. I see this as the big disadvantage of Argos. The T-20 transmission in the Max machines and others is capable of this, but it is not instant, it requires shifting. Watch how easily the MaxII (tan machine) turns in the water.

Now watch the sears sportster without a split shifter, same pond same day.

I bet the Muddox would swim much faster with the Argos tires....somebody should try this and let us know.

[Middlefork Miner]

Customer support might be an issue with a Mudd Ox...

[mightymaxIV]

I haven't witnessed it personally, but I have heard that the Mudd Ox swims very well with the Argo 25" tires, that being said Davids Mudd Ox moves with ease through mud holes (like the devils pit) that stick the modified high lifted quads and side by sides. Like David already said the Mudd Ox does have some disadvantages entering the water.

As far as mobility goes I have been able to climb out of mud with my Argo that I was sure I would never make. Using the Admirals counter rotation in thick mud puts way to much stress on the machine.

When I use my low range to pull out a four wheeler or side by side I set myself for a straight back or forward pull. If I have to drive through thick mud in low range I just touch my handlebar so that the counter rotation does not activate.

The counter rotation is very useful on the trail, in water or in light mud, but if you over stress the system you will get a belt squeal.


I am not sure at this point but I think a lot of the heat problems are caused by the very quiet and restrictive exhaust which keeps a lot of heat under the hood in the transmission and engine area.

A less restrictive exhaust system would probably fix all these problems-but then I bought a new machine so I wouldn't have to fix stuff!

As Mudd Bug said, there is no perfect machine but Frontier, Mudd Ox or HDI will leave every other modified 4x4 sitting in the mud.

This video shows how useful the counter rotation can be in watery, swampy mud. Go to the 5:30 mark to see me use the counter rotation in mud and water

[mudbug3]

I bet the Muddox would swim much faster with the Argos tires....somebody should try this and let us know.

I talked to Matt Oxender on the phone one time about 25" inch , Frontier tires on the Mudd-Ox ,and he told me that the Mudd-Ox swam the fastest with these tires compared to all of the other tires that he had tried on it.

[Bud]

That dude in the sportster would turn a lot better if he would lean into it.

[ktm950se]

Greetings everyone,
Thanks for your responses. 'Lots of good info for me to consider.
I was hoping to find the youtube video that initiated my question about this topic, but its eluding me at the moment. While it didn't show a Mudd-OX, it did show an AATV Slowly crossing a small stream then going up a steep 3' bank. The next AATV to follow (I think it was Green [not Blue] in color) tried to do the same, but eventually flipped over backwards (driver unhurt). it was this AATV, which tried to turn at the same time it was trying to go up the bank, that sparked the question in my mind.
Perhaps someone remembers seeing this video and can provide a link?

ktm950se

[mightymaxIV]

Is this the video you are referring to?

[ktm950se]

Greetings,
Here's the video I was looking for.

Again, no Mudd-Ox here, but around the 8 - 15 second mark the AATV operator stops the right-side wheels to turn while going up the bank and loses traction. While he eventually makes it up the bank, I wonder if he could slow the right-side tracks (to turn to avoid the tree ahead), but still apply some power to those wheels, if he'd have a greater chance to make it up the bank. It is this type of situation where I'm wondering if the Mudd-Ox transmission has the advantage over the Argo transmission.
What do you think?

ktm950se

[Mike]

I don't think that rollover was caused by trying to turn while going up the hill. It appeared to get enough of a hop to lift the front four tires off the ground just long enough to let the back two tires walk up under the rest of the Max. Being able to counter rotate wouldn't have helped in this situation but being able to instantly reverse would have. Also, different weight distribution would come into play here too. The Argo that makes it up first has the engine in the front. The green Max II that rolls over has the engine in the back. The MuddOx has the engine in the middle. They all have different advantages. It's like the others posters in this thread say, there is no ideal machine and each will handle different obstacles better than others. In this particular example, the Argo with weight in the front definitely performs better.

[ktm950se]

Greetings Mike,
You make several great points! I hadn't considered the benefits of a transmission that allows you to quickly reverse, or the importance of weight distribution engine placement can have, when traversing the type of terrain that flipped the Max II.

While I'm still leaning towards purchasing a Mudd-Ox, until that occurs, I'll be learning from others' driving mishaps through these type of youtube videos.

ktm950se

[Cougar]

Greetings Mike,
You make several great points! I hadn't considered the benefits of a transmission that allows you to quickly reverse, or the importance of weight distribution engine placement can have, when traversing the type of terrain that flipped the Max II.

While I'm still leaning towards purchasing a Mudd-Ox, until that occurs, I'll be learning from others' driving mishaps through these type of youtube videos.

ktm950se

The best thing you could do is find a Argo,Max and a Mudd-Ox and test drive them. I had a Argo and when we were at Haspin I got to drive a Max and a Mudd-Ox. But Mike is right they are all great, it's up to you. Go to U Tube and look under Haspin, you will find all 3 running there. Hope this helps.........Cougar