cost of production

[mudNmallards]

I know the cost of the carbon fiber has come down in recent years, but may still be too much for the recreational market.
In that case, you could do steel for your industrial machine, aluminum and carbon fiber for comercial, and thinner aluminum with fiberglass for the recreational market.
Now the problem is .....too many options adds costs. LOL

Just FYI, in my case ( on the actual project) all I have been given thus far is an advance sheet with desired properties so thats not a whole lot to go on ( the actual marketing survey is just now beginning by the firm that contacted me so they have not even hashed out all the final qualities yet so I'm told so I cant really plan against a "dream" at this point)

That said, the gist of what I'm reading is that the intent of these machines is not just human conveyance over whatever terrain ( over here there are zillions of gators,mules and 4 wheelers that do that just fine and they can buy 2 or 3 of them for the price of some of the AATV models) The actual end purpose seems to be a new breed of industrial multi purpose machines with enhanced capabilities that can be readily adapted to specific "fit for purpose" uses. (seriously, one item on the dream sheet is an attachable outrigger and jib crane attachment in the body for field lifting)

[thebuggyman1]

I know the cost of the carbon fiber has come down in recent years, but may still be too much for the recreational market.
In that case, you could do steel for your industrial machine, aluminum and carbon fiber for comercial, and thinner aluminum with fiberglass for the recreational market.
Now the problem is .....too many options adds costs. LOL

[Bazooo guy]

I think fiberglass would be the way to go for the body. The upper tub could have different versions to change from 2 or 4 seats or a dump box or flat deck.
With an aluminun skid plate to protect the underside and a galvanized frame inside.
Hydraulic pump and oil tank/cooler with 6 or 8 wheel motors and optional pto.

[mudNmallards]

Dont forget the drawbacks to aluminum....continued flexing will cause cracks. A tube type frame from chromoly is great for strength to weight ratio, but then there is the issue of dissimilar metals and corrosion. Carbon fiber would be great, but what would the cost be?

Actually, I considered that (flexing) right out of the gate because in my world- the number one consideration I have to factor in is coupling misalignment due to flexing under load and excessive vibration for industrial applications. Thats why i said it would have to be a unibody design. ( thats been proven to be a superior design to eliminate flexing because the body and frame are "one"- thats why it can be made lighter and stronger than other designs)

On the model I may be contracted to actually work on ( not our commercial possibility that we are kicking around that I'm gathering information here on this board) it has to be steel (with the ability to be up armored) so weight is not a major factor other than its airmobile capability. For the commercial application I believe steel would be the way to go but I'm afraid the additional weight would have a substantial adverse affect on the performance in mud and water unless the size, geometry and powerplant were modified accordingly to accomodate it. Then that gets back to the price.

I think the galvanic reactions and corrosions from dissimilar metals would also be a major problem given these vehicles uses also.

I need to look into the carbon fiber aspect- I had not thought of that

[thebuggyman1]

Dont forget the drawbacks to aluminum....continued flexing will cause cracks. A tube type frame from chromoly is great for strength to weight ratio, but then there is the issue of dissimilar metals and corrosion. Carbon fiber would be great, but what would the cost be?

[mudNmallards]

since most people that play with these machines are mechanical and like to upgrade, rebuild, and modify. Maybe the way to go would be to have it designed in kit form than you just get all the pieces store them in a big shop, have different scenarios available so the customer can creat their own machine by choosing the options that suit them the best. A person can offer it in stages so a person can build it as you can afford it and by doing it this way it would be cheaper and easier to get into the hobby.

That idea was brought up by several of us last night discussing our potential recreational project and I personally believe it has a lot of merit because there is a large DIY market out there.

Another was to minimize all custom made parts so that over 90% of the vehicle parts would be available locally at any industrial supply outled like Applied, Motion, WW Grainger etc. ( thats a major cost reducer for any production unit)

One item that came up that we are somewhat at "loggerheads" on and I would ask for experienced commentary from is the body. The question is polymer or aluminum.

There are benefits and detriments to both designs.

My personal opinion (mainly because I do metal fab for machine assemblies) is that the aluminum body would be the superior choice for durability, overall weight, strength ( expecially for increasing the life for drive trains). Once set up with a robot ( for any type of mass production) the production costs(even including the stock) are generally substantially lower than plastics. A modular unibody type design would also offer a wide variety of custom options for vehicles desired for a specific purpose with very little additional set up or cost. An additional benefit would be the ability to repair or add owner designed custom additions at any welding shop.

What are the views on the body constructions?

[azz7772]

since most people that play with these machines are mechanical and like to upgrade, rebuild, and modify. Maybe the way to go would be to have it designed in kit form than you just get all the pieces store them in a big shop, have different scenarios available so the customer can creat their own machine by choosing the options that suit them the best. A person can offer it in stages so a person can build it as you can afford it and by doing it this way it would be cheaper and easier to get into the hobby.

[Bw6]

Here is my take. Probably sooner or later most of us entertain the thought of building our own design. The initial thought usually manifests itself after some hands on fixing, mods, or restoring projects. I was no different than 100,s on here. For me it started with the HOOT ETV, I became a distributor for HOOT CANADA, and ONTARIO was mine. I really liked the Hoot (and still do), but thought a 2 seater (or more) with storage was needed.

So I designed the Bushwacker. Hoot slowly died, and then went belly up, and so did my hopes for the Bushwacker. I lost some money in the deal, but was bitten by the bug, so on came Bushwacker II (BWII), bigger, heavier, more HP, different tranny (T-20). I was still dreaming of production. Other ideas and versions followed.....

MY TAKE:

1. Body, use aluminum for proto-type, then go to Roto-Mould, less money than Thermoforming (Argo), you don't need to buy the rotational equipment, just pay for the mould, sub out production.

2. Design own tranny, don't get trapped by using competition tranny (T-20 or others), can use hydrostatic but it's been done.

3. Farm out production items, with back up suppliers, only assembly components.

4. Design should have suspension, tracks, be fast, style (Wedge), superior water speed, counter rotating tranny, no chains, and seat 2.

5. Final product must appeal to a broad customer base, and hopefully attract some ATV/UTV guys.

[Bazooo guy]

Someday a hydraulic drive on each wheel will be the answer.

That is the answer no t20 required.
Pump motor and hyd. hose Joystick for fwd.rev. and steering.
And why not a fiberglass mold for the body and tall tires with a jet drive.

[kadookid]

Interesting idea, the tranny would be the big problem I think RI owns the rights to the t20

[Groundhog]

I always wanted to make a recycling machine to turn 2 liter bottles into AATV bodies. You could pay people 5 cents per bottle, and with ~250 of them you could mold a body.
To me, that would be really cool!

Otherwise, designing a tranny that is better than the T-20 would be a pricey adventure.
Someday a hydraulic drive on each wheel will be the answer.

Suspension is really required to capture a large market. A cost effective method of doing suspension would really get these things into the mainstream.

[azz7772]

here is an example of a Roto mold machine cost

M-120 | Plastic Rotational Molding| KDCapital

[smog]

A few years ago there was talk of getting a production run for new Attex poly bodies and I don't think we could even find 10 members willing to commit to buying one. I think we needed to produce and sell 80 to break even.

what about Redoing the Hustler big foot tall tub 980 ?

it's easy to reverse engineer the drawings, correct the flaws but the poly body is still outrageously expensive.

[George]

A few years ago there was talk of getting a production run for new Attex poly bodies and I don't think we could even find 10 members willing to commit to buying one. I think we needed to produce and sell 80 to break even.

[mudNmallards]

what do you think realistically how much it would cost to get a building and tool it to build 6x6s and 8x8s what equipment would be needed. How much man power.
if a person bought property somewhere where the real estate is hurting and people need jobs would be the best deal. I know lots of machine shops are always going bankrupt and you can get equipment for pennies on the dollar.
with enough interest in terms of members willing to invest and the combined knowledge, creating and building our own 6x6/8x8 for a reasonable price could be doable.
7000 plus members at say $5000.00 buy in set up as a corporation.

Funny you should ask that as I'm investigating the same thing myself, LOL

Just FYI

The cost to set up a true manufacturing facility would be 2-3 mm easy. I doubt with the market that would be a good idea.

It would be better to farm most of it out and have an assembly plant ( more along the lines of 500k)

If my project goes through, ask me in about 18 months and I will probably be able to give you real world actual figures