cost of production

[mudNmallards]

here is a vid of a hydrostatic driven front sprocket drive vehicle

If you don’t mind let me pick your brain here for a minute.

I have lockers in all my mud vehicles and have been in situations such as busted U joints and some mud holes where I have had to rely on front wheel pulling. Its also pretty well understood its easier to pull rather than push.

It could be done with any drive type but just easiest with individual wheel drives so excluding that part of the discussion.

In addition to the standard all wheel drive everybody expects, what would you think of having the option of selective rear or front wheel drive (with the middle wheels free wheeling) since both have advantages or disadvantages over the other?

Do you feel that would be beneficial, something a lot of people might like to have the option of, detrimental, waste of time or what? (and why)

[azz7772]

If you don’t mind let me pick your brain here for a minute.

I have lockers in all my mud vehicles and have been in situations such as busted U joints and some mud holes where I have had to rely on front wheel pulling. Its also pretty well understood its easier to pull rather than push.

It could be done with any drive type but just easiest with individual wheel drives so excluding that part of the discussion.

In addition to the standard all wheel drive everybody expects, what would you think of having the option of selective rear or front wheel drive (with the middle wheels free wheeling) since both have advantages or disadvantages over the other?

Do you feel that would be beneficial, something a lot of people might like to have the option of, detrimental, waste of time or what? (and why)

before I answer this question I have a question " have you had the opportunity to drive a 6x6 or 8x8 yet and if so did you put it through its paces with obstacles to overcome or just a test drive in a field" ?

[mudNmallards]

before I answer this question I have a question " have you had the opportunity to drive a 6x6 or 8x8 yet and if so did you put it through its paces with obstacles to overcome or just a test drive in a field" ?

Yeah I have driven both 6&8 at sites in the UAE, Oz, Guinea and Canada but was not able to "play" with them because that would be construed as an "unsafe act" and I would have been promptly removed from the site.

[azz7772]

ok personally I think you need the middle wheels for traction because with no suspension when going over rough terrain the front and rear tires are actually in the air a lot. If there was a suspension with a lot of travel like on a quad, 4 wheeler, etc you could keep your tires on the ground for traction.

[jpswift1]

before I answer this question I have a question " have you had the opportunity to drive a 6x6 or 8x8 yet and if so did you put it through its paces with obstacles to overcome or just a test drive in a field" ?

That's a HUGE factor to consider. Theory is one thing......talking about it, and designing it on paper and what not, but driving an AATV in extreme terrain is an entire differently different story. That's the best way to see both the positive and negative aspects of a machine.

[mudNmallards]

ok personally I think you need the middle wheels for traction because with no suspension when going over rough terrain the front and rear tires are actually in the air a lot. If there was a suspension with a lot of travel like on a quad, 4 wheeler, etc you could keep your tires on the ground for traction.

Well i was thinking about the 2 wheel drive (front or rear) just for use as a road gear for a flat plain type usage and not really a choice on any given trail

The suspension question is still up in the air (no pun intended)

[mudNmallards]

That's a HUGE factor to consider. Theory is one thing......talking about it, and designing it on paper and what not, but driving an AATV in extreme terrain is an entire differently different story. That's the best way to see both the positive and negative aspects of a machine.

Well speaking for me personally- between all my jeeping, heavy equipment usage, tanking, 4 wheeling and motocross on about every type of terrain on the planet at one time or another- I think I have the broad based experience in general enough to get the gist of the concept.

That said, your point that there is no substitute for experience in a specific type vehicle is well taken because every vehicle has unique quirks that others do not have. Since I'm in the process of quoting these with the intent to buy ( so far the Argo 750 HDI is leading the pack but the jury is still out)- I intent to address that AATV experience deficit I have in the not too distant future.

[azz7772]

Well i was thinking about the 2 wheel drive (front or rear) just for use as a road gear for a flat plain type usage and not really a choice on any given trail

The suspension question is still up in the air (no pun intended)

in that scenario not sure how well it would turn maybe with a feature like a supacat where the front wheels actually steer might be better. If a person or a company needed to cover a lot of ground where traction and obstacles are not an issue then maybe a high range road gear with just the front two pulling would work here is a link to see a supacat
Alvis Supacat 6x6 1600 MK II // Ex Military vehicles for sale SUPACAT. MOD Trucks

[jpswift1]

Well speaking for me personally- between all my jeeping, heavy equipment usage, tanking, 4 wheeling and motocross on about every type of terrain on the planet at one time or another- I think I have the broad based experience in general enough to get the gist of the concept.

That said, your point that there is no substitute for experience in a specific type vehicle is well taken because every vehicle has unique quirks that others do not have. Since I'm in the process of quoting these with the intent to buy ( so far the Argo 750 HDI is leading the pack but the jury is still out)- I intent to address that AATV experience deficit I have in the not too distant future.

The best thing to do for your situation would be to get behind the sticks of as many different machines as you can and log as many hours as you possibly can so you can see the ups and down of each machine.

[mudNmallards]

The best thing to do for your situation would be to get behind the sticks of as many different machines as you can and log as many hours as you possibly can so you can see the ups and down of each machine.

I would love nothing better but I have a severe constraint that there really is no work around for.

I only come to the states for about 25 days a year ( gotta maintain that 330 day rule for the IRS) and at most sites I work at its not safe to go outside the wire. The ones I can dont have an AATV population.

I'm kinda screwed in that aspect but theres nothing I can do about it.

[mudNmallards]

in that scenario not sure how well it would turn maybe with a feature like a supacat where the front wheels actually steer might be better. If a person or a company needed to cover a lot of ground where traction and obstacles are not an issue then maybe a high range road gear with just the front two pulling would work here is a link to see a supacat
Alvis Supacat 6x6 1600 MK II // Ex Military vehicles for sale SUPACAT. MOD Trucks

I’ve actually seen a couple of those at Leatherneck. The Brits had a handful of them gunned up and there were a few more at the air strip on the British side. From what I saw they looked pretty cool but I never got to drive one.

The way I see the 2 wheel drive- any steering configuration will have to involve combination braking and power so there wouldn’t be a difference if it was front or rear steer.

If not you would run into the same steering problem encountered in all half track type vehicles. You either have to have 50+% of the wheels turning or have a long body to drive ratio where the vehicle can arc steer. Otherwise the tractive power of the remainder would push the vehicle straight and overpower the steering.

[North Country Tough]

Hey M&M can you tell me anything about this bearing stamping is RHP T1035-1.1/4G=102 65 nothing else is visible,now this is the bearings that were supplied to me in a HDI Argo axle bearing upgrade,the obvious question are they of any significant quality at all and would I be able to Cryro them,before I go ahead with a complete axle bearing change out this is the best time to get it done,FYI this is the new style bearing they have changed their heavy duty models to and claimed to be the "answer" as always Iam Johnny Skeptical on that claim.And here is wishing you luck in November,dont think you should move up here they are now printing our money on plastic bill,s perhaps they will come in handy to patch up a hole in my boat not much good for anything else.LOL N.C.T

[azz7772]

.And here is wishing you luck in November,dont think you should move up here they are now printing our money on plastic bill,s perhaps they will come in handy to patch up a hole in my boat not much good for anything else.LOL N.C.T

have to remember toilet paper would not want to have to use one of those ice fishing

[North Country Tough]

have to remember toilet paper would not want to have to use one of those ice fishing

Come to think about it,would make a real good gitch liner,prevent them nasty rust stains.

[mudNmallards]

Hey M&M can you tell me anything about this bearing stamping is RHP T1035-1.1/4G=102 65 nothing else is visible,now this is the bearings that were supplied to me in a HDI Argo axle bearing upgrade,the obvious question are they of any significant quality at all and would I be able to Cryro them,before I go ahead with a complete axle bearing change out this is the best time to get it done,FYI this is the new style bearing they have changed their heavy duty models to and claimed to be the "answer" as always Iam Johnny Skeptical on that claim.And here is wishing you luck in November,dont think you should move up here they are now printing our money on plastic bill,s perhaps they will come in handy to patch up a hole in my boat not much good for anything else.LOL N.C.T

Oh absolutely I can assist you with that. I can tell you right off the bat from memory it’s probably a Ransom Hoffman Pollard ( British manufacturer owned by NSK if memory serves) They are not very common in NA but over here in the world of Oz with a heavy European influence they are. That’s good news because that tells me its not some kind of knock off but a mainline product which means its manufactured to world class standards of the ABMA with a traceable quality history.

So, you can put any “quality” skepticism you have to bed right now permanently. The bearing proper is a mainline world class product.

Now for the bad news. ( this applies to any bearing in any application) The question on the table is does the bearing meet or exceed the requirements of the application and that’s more important than everything else because no bearing made will survive in anything if it’s the wrong design for the application.

Heres a problem I’ve run into before and my gut tells me its going to be the case here too. That application data from the manufacturer may not exist.

When I scope out a bearing for a design and work with the manufacturer to decide the proper sku ( which in my case is always SKF unless a client specifies a different one) I have to give them the ISO shaft fit I intend to use ( most of mine are the tight .003 interference fits and not press ons and that enlarges the inner race to hold running clearances) , RPM, force to load, torque, expected temperature, axial/radial loads (including any shock loads), gross application weight, lubrication type, alignment vectors, seal configurations, required vibration signatures, overhung weights and a whole lot of other specialty information. This costs a LOT of money. Smaller manufacturers mostly use the “it fits the hole and shaft so lets go with it” method of bearing selection.( trade secret time-a HUGE part of my success and reputation comes simply from doing exactly that and retrofitting a machine with the CORRECT bearing/seal/hardware it SHOULD HAVE HAD from the beginning, LOL)

Your Argo may or may not have their half of the information to give you. (but what I listed above is the bare minimum you need to ask for) They are not “bad guys” if they don’t have it because it can cost well over a half mil in engineering and tests to get it and many companies simply cannot afford it. Since I’m focusing on an Argo to purchase for me- I would appreciate you giving me any of the information you get because it would have a major influencing factor on what I wind up purchasing.

Now to your bearing- I don’t have any of their numbers or catalog or deal with RHP directly but I emailed what you posted to my NSK guy so I expect an answer in a few days or so. I’ll let you know or ask you for additional information. Most manufacturers stamp the basic sizing information on their bearing and hand engrave specifics. Also, some use symbols or other criteria to “hide” trade secrets or application specific IP with their client. So, I may be giving you an additional RFI depending on what else he tells me he needs. The good news is that in theory I should be able to tell you everything from the raw material supplier to who QC’d it and put it in the box.

I’ll tell you another little trade secret. “A” anti-friction bearing in “A “ application should have a service life from 1 to 10 million revolutions. (so all manufacturers say) with proper lubrication, application and alignment. Everybody in the bearing, engineering and reliability industries knows this coming out of the gate- its no secret. What this means is we all know where to look when that doesn’t happen. We already know from millions of studies those life expectancies are real and not exaggerated. Going along with that it must be stated that in many cases its not feasible to design in every parameter to ensure that life because of cost, weight, dimensions and whatever so it’s a calculated trade off. We know that too.

OK, so in these little vehicles, only your great great great great grand children should be concerned with replacing them. With all the greasing threads I’ve seen here I seriously doubt “maintenance” is the reason for their premature failures. I can see alignment being a major contributor but based on what I’ve seen here and in some of the manuals I have obtained ( which is great but wholly incomplete) I would bet a weeks pay that all the bearings are not the proper fit for the loads they are subject to based on the normal criteria bearings are spec’d out with. (that’s a huge thing I’m looking into)

Cryo treatment- DO NOT CRYO ANY BEARING UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE WITHOUT KNOWING THE FOLLOWING. There was a day when I could tell you that only high end, spindle bearings for machining centers, helicopter rotor bearings and other specialty bearings were cryo treated. THAT IS NO LONGER TRUE. With bearings having to be “smaller”, run at greater loads, cheaper and everything else- Cryo is a normal part of the manufacturing process in a large percentage of cases.

They do this to make smaller bearings carry higher loads and to hold tighter tolerances. ( kinda dovetailing my shaft answer above- if you ever wonder how they load the race and rolling media into precision bearings ( or we take them apart for root cause analysis) with .005 or less clearances, they put them in presses and squeeze the races to egg shape and have a sweet spot they load the media one element at the time. They can do this because cryo is one way that allows the steel to do this and spring back with no molecular damage) They generally DO NOT allow "people" to see or know about that process because if they let the generic non engineering public watch how they were put together you would "swear" they "broke" the bearing putting it together.

So, if a bearing was cryo treated as part of manufacturing process and factored in the heat/cold treatment of the steel and you send it out for “generic’ treatment and change any of those properties- you have DESTROYED that bearing. You must contact the manufacturer and see if the specific bearing you have is a candidate for cryo treatment.

Hope this helps you.