cost of production

[azz7772]

if I was designing a new machine and not retrofitting existing ones I would do what you are saying, but I would take the acceptable shaft size for the weight and torque and double it. then you have overkill on bearings as well. I think a lot of stuff is built to minimum specs for cost reasons as well as profit, if you made it too good you would lose out on parts sales, and getting the next generation machine that has the " new and improved stuff on them". Look at power sleds people feel they need to get a new one every couple years. I say way over build it to make it very hard to destroy.

[mudNmallards]

if I was designing a new machine and not retrofitting existing ones I would do what you are saying, but I would take the acceptable shaft size for the weight and torque and double it. then you have overkill on bearings as well. I think a lot of stuff is built to minimum specs for cost reasons as well as profit, if you made it too good you would lose out on parts sales, and getting the next generation machine that has the " new and improved stuff on them". Look at power sleds people feel they need to get a new one every couple years. I say way over build it to make it very hard to destroy.

Sir, I can ASSURE you that EVERYTHING is built to the barest minimum spec in the consumer world. (not as big an issue in industry because performance characteristics and life spans are part of the process and manufacturers must meet them or pay dearly for not)

I’m going to stick my neck out a bit because I have never designed one of these machines (YET, LOL)and comment on “what I see” rather than what I have “evaluated” but just based on what I’ve read and looked at in various manuals I really and SERIOUSLY doubt that any “engineering” ( defined as legitimate engineering processes performed to industry standards with proper validation in design concept proofing) has EVER been done.

I’m currently of the opinion that whoever just threw parts together until It accidently rolled and put something on the market.

So far (giving me an out because I have not had any design to study) I don’t see any evidence that any true front end engineering and design has ever been done with any performance criteria in mind on any of these.

Seriously, if there had been, the majority of the performance constraints and component failures I see here simply would not exist unless the vehicle wrecked.
If it exists I would love to view whatever performance criteria the individual machine was spec’d out to perform at and how they spec’d out the component parts to meet that criteria.

Parts sales ( as far as a profit producer from the business perspective) has nothing to do with the design of a machine. I don’t know of any manufacturer of anything who would love nothing better than to eliminate his parts department and go “made to order” to replace rare component breakdowns because that costs money to have and maintain and solely focus on sales “out the door”. Plus, if it doesn’t break it enhances a products “street cred” and further promotes it.

Also, there would be lesser requests for “upgrades” because in many cases those are just excuses for a poor upfront design in the first place.
Seriously, to falsify my point to prove a point use the standard industry lingo. Upgrades and enhancements bring out an extreme function of a vehicle such as rock crawling or whatever. You expect that.

Sure any mechanical device wears and breaks, that’s just the way it is but how often do automobiles and heavy equipment go down for major rebuilds? They generally don’t over the statistical percentage and those that do have high mileage or extreme conditions.

I don’t know any of whatever “design criteria” went into any of these machines (obviously) but I would bet performance and reliability could be increased 100+% with minimal engineering and little associated cost.

[Bazooo guy]

I don’t know any of whatever “design criteria” went into any of these machines (obviously) but I would bet performance and reliability could be increased 100+% with minimal engineering and little associated cost.

If only life was this easy......

[amphibious drew]

If only life was this easy......

If only odg or ri could afford an engineer. The trails would be paved in gold and covered with diamond boulders. its amazing those companies ever figured out water displacement and propulsion.

[jpswift1]

Hey Mudnmallards, So you SERIOUSLY doubt that any "engineering" went into these machines?

So do you know the vast history of 4, 6, and 8 wheeled amphibious ATVs, visited and talked to the ENGINEERS at the headquarters of manufacturers such as Recreatives Industries and Ontario Drive and Gear, do you know even the names and contributions of the gentleman that pioneered this industry such as Bill Gerber, Lowell Chrisco, Jerry Atkinson, Sid Wallach, and John Gower, have you spent any time driving, rebuilding, and repairing or upgrading an AATV, do you know the about the major corporations and government agencies that had influences on these machines, or have you had ANY hands on experience or know any background about the ENGINEERING that has been done throughout the many years that AATVs have been produced?

If you answered "No" to any of the previous questions, then your statements such as the ones you made in the previous post have NO value whatsoever (no matter how much NON-AATV experience and education you may have) and your posts will be completely disregarded by members on the site searching for useful information. The members of 6X6World are here to learn, help each other, and gather as a community so that our hobby can grow and prosper in a non commercial matter. You seem like you have some potential to become a helpful and contributing member of this site, but since your AATV experience is zero at this time, please save us the time and save Mike the server space for posts that are more rational and helpful to other members of this forum.

[Beeman]

Uh oh. Someone divided by 0.

[whipper-ag]

but since your AATV experience is zero at this time, please save us the time and save Mike the server space for posts that are more rational and helpful to other members of this forum.

You said it all Jeff, Thanks.

Whipper

[fmints]

United We Stand !!!!! You go Jeff!

[mustangwagz]

Time to turn on the spam filter...

[brushcutter]

Hey Mudnmallards,

If you answered "No" to any of the previous questions, then your statements such as the ones you made in the previous post have NO value whatsoever (no matter how much NON-AATV experience and education you may have) and your posts will be completely disregarded by members on the site searching for useful information. The members of 6X6World are here to learn, help each other, and gather as a community so that our hobby can grow and prosper in a non commercial matter. You seem like you have some potential to become a helpful and contributing member of this site, but since your AATV experience is zero at this time, please save us the time and save Mike the server space for posts that are more rational and helpful to other members of this forum.

Well, M&M I wondered how long it would be before someone else realized you were writing VOLUMES of information, but really were saying nothing directly pertaining to the topic. I got really close to giving ya one of these a couple of days back. Now I realize, and at this point I'm certain everyone else does, that you have a degree in something or other, but hey, let's stick to the topic. If you want to help just tell us what bearing would best suit the abuse/misuse we so love to regularly inflict upon our machines...In as few words as possible. Or what /who makes the toughest meanest sprockets and chains available. Those would help and you would be everyone's hero for sure.

[jerseybigfoot]

Now, now folks lets not be so hard on Mudma. He hasn't driven a AATV yet. If he is interested in designing his own machine, let him do it. The outcome will be either too expensive or too heavy for the person reading this forum. Now if he analyzed the AAtv shortcomings he would be looking in in entirely different direction. We know Whipper looked down that road and found a solution. This thread is gotten away from the original intent and is now on the Sky Harbor parking garage exit ramp.

[mudNmallards]

Well, I had no idea my post would solicit the responses it did while I was on a plane and it was certainly not my intent to offend anyone- so to anyone or any organization I did, I offer you my FULL and UNQUALIFIED apology. I have no reservation whatsoever in doing so and even bowing down and begging forgiveness for my impasse. I was basically voicing observations from my experience in areas coupled with posts here and soliciting comments.

Obviously I touched some sensitive nerves and the point to not touch them as been acknowledged and will not be breeched again.

So, formally and officially I offer my sincerest apology and will not allow it to happen again. I hope those offended will accept it in that vein.

That being said, I would like to offer some commentary to some comments made that are based in physics and the reality of business which was the basis of my post because regardless of opinion, those 2 rule the day. Its not like this is a “1 man show” on my end.

Without calling any specific poster out- I’ll address some key points

yes I have. You raised a legitimate question deserving legitimate answers. I was contracted to work with armor holdings and pinzgauer back in the day (specifically on “task force Gates” when it was an operational priority but even before then) long before they were swallowed up by BAE ( who I did later in the sands). I also have a pretty long history with Anniston Army depot where they rebuild tanks. I think I have the “government” and major corporation” end covered. ( completely discounting civilian companies like Cat, Deere, Link Belt) I think I can hold my own there.

Yes, I have an acknowledged deficit when it comes to RV’s and “playing” with things but I believe it’s a little offset when they are used in industrial and combat environments since I have been both crew and evaluator and been one of thes one recommending upgrades. I guess that theater depends on which one you play in or consider of paramount importance. I’m not sure how to correlate it in the recreational world but I really believe I have the “sense of urgency” because if I made mistakes and breakdowns happened then people didn’t get stuck in the mud- they simply died.

Also, it doesn’t take a good engineer to recognize a bad design. The operational failures and physics will prove themselves- I don’t have to. That seems to be an issue if the threads here are believed to be true and accurate.

If anyone ever intends to bring a product to market- you BETTER ask those “painful” questions and bring them to the forefront because if you do not then you need to be prepared to lose your @zz. That’s my purpose here because if I (we) cannot offer something significantly better in some measurable realm then it would be foolish to try. You better know the “good, bad and ugly” and have an infrastructure prepared to handle it or your next step is BANKRUPTCY COURT. Thats a simple guarantee and a mistake I don’t intend to take.

I came here asking questions ( and as an offset offering experience because nothing is for free) for personal and professional reasons. Many have contributed to that and I appreciate that and hope they continue. I thank them all and they have given me invaluable insight.

Again, I apologize profusely to anyone I accidently offended and I promise to try to not do it again. I promise that.

To those that may be fueled by pride, bravado or whatever- start an “octagon” thread and get in it and lets all see what real engineering went into these designs and maybe discover what might have been overlooked.I may not know the answer immediately because I specialize in certain areas but I believe I have the resources and contacts to find out the answer in those areas I don’t.

Since I was challenged- I see it as only honest to answer that challenge and see if the math ( based on the components) or the “field performance” matches up with what they should ( to design specs).

If I mistake this then again I apologize but I view this as a gauntlet being thrown down. I am fully capable and ready to answer any such challenge so I’m throwing my own gauntlet down as a counter challenge.

Give us these “mysterious” design and engineering claims several have obfuscated about but not actually shown and lets all test them for all to see. I would like to see them and do the math personally. They may prove very useful. ( I have no problem whatsoever answering any similar challenge because if my math is wrong I want someone to point it out)

I would love to see vehicle geometry, drive train torques, component application, force to loads for uneven terrain and all these other equations that went into everything- I hope they exist so we can examine them all or otherwise there may be more truth in my post that some seem to despise than some really want to admit because they might want to talk around it rather than answer it directly.

OK, mines on the table, time to ante up- lets see where the data falls

[Rock Doctor]

I like Argo's, vroom vroom

RD

[Hogneck]

Well, M&M I wondered how long it would be before someone else realized you were writing VOLUMES of information, but really were saying nothing directly pertaining to the topic. I got really close to giving ya one of these a couple of days back. Now I realize, and at this point I'm certain everyone else does, that you have a degree in something or other, but hey, let's stick to the topic. If you want to help just tell us what bearing would best suit the abuse/misuse we so love to regularly inflict upon our machines...In as few words as possible. Or what /who makes the toughest meanest sprockets and chains available. Those would help and you would be everyone's hero for sure.

[Hogneck]

I am happy to be able to come here and find a "fix" with my machine so I can be out the door riding and not worry about what should and could be. People here have been great at helping others and I would like to see this grow and continue on what it was founded for. Promote the hobby !