cost of production

[roblynn]

Jet propulsion was offered around 1969-70 with the Hustler. The Sperry Rand Wedge also offered it. And there were also other models out there that offered propellers as options, such as the Muscateer. Before you post some of this stuff, you might want to spend some more time reading through the site so you can learn these things first.

http://www.6x6world.com/images/6x6-a...-article-3.jpg

thanks jp im well awere of these, now can you please tell me why no other company currenty producing a low cost 6x6 or 8x8 is willing to offer this .

[roblynn]

the technology exists to (and has for a long time) dramatically improve the performance of our machines.
There are drawbacks to all changes. Just like all modern machines have advantages and disadvantages.
You mention jet pumps: Imagine how well one would work after being packed full of the mud seen in a lot of the adair track videos.
Suspension: Cv joints are not for everyone. I often drive through brushy areas and briar patches that would have me replacing the boots every time out. U-joints could be used, but then you are talking very precise axle length or a sliding shaft that would also clog with mud.
Speed: A little more yes, alot more no. Speed would bring the need for a full roll cage, and that would add weight and raise c.o.g.

There are improvements that could be made, and should be made, but nothing drastic. Many of us have customized our machines. Assessed the weak areas and changed them to fit our individual needs. Whipper has made the springer kit his desert area riding, i made the maxii bigfoot http://www.6x6world.com/forums/max-a...tml#post135330
many of us have put in larger motors, and there are many more examples....too many to list.
Each modification works for that person, and not for everyone. Like my 40 horse eats about 3 times the fuel of the 16 horse that was in the machine originally. I have to be careful not to run out on long trips.
I would encourage you to modify a machine, or make one from scratch to fit your needs. Post up a thread about it, and do some real world testing.

buggy man1 ! hay grate job on that tub project! that was awsome i read your thread about a week ago and was vary impressed with what you did and how you went about it. im looking forword to hearing how the seam holds up over time . i just saw whippers springer kit last night on vidio and some of his freinds ,also vary invative ppl and by the looks of one of the vidios i saw worked very well .

i have to say i agree with some of what you said that mods are limited such as speed . i dont think that things like cv axles or u joint shafts are to fare out of question , for example it would be ez to protect a cv boot by runing a deep offset rim and a aluminum guard on the inner boot,
though i dont think a cv axle is the best or most cost efective way it could be used
my freind and my self have been discussing building an aluminum hual ampihb from scratch , the only thing that stops me is the thought of sinking 20 to 30 thousand into a toy that brings no return on capitol . but if i were to build it would be a sub frame and modular in nature so that the whole unit could be chainged around to suit your needs by unbolting segments and bolting in a new segment . for example a single seater , a anphib truck , personel hualer would all us the same front segment but have a different center and rear segment.
in these segments the drive train remains and is simply aligned with splind shaft or hydro fittings then the hual is bolted up.

as for the jet propulsion im sure this day and age if you sit affew like minded guys at a table with that vary in background you could come up with some sort of trap door to protect it or even a ez to remove cover thats mud tight .

its my view and it looks to me like some others here too, that it would be nice to see a more modern ,usable ,workable , lower maintenance, mod freindly base to work with. and i trully think that if a modern version was built with these things it would draw a large segment of atv byers and utv byers.
i just feel thats whats offerd in the 10 to 15 thousand doller range is vary limited . go to a atv shop show them 15k in cash and they will show you many differnt modles that are all specialized at doing one thing well and not so well at anything ells.

if you build a segment aatv it could be assembled for speed [ with a roll cage and low prfile tires , for mud with tall agressive tires a wench and possible cab, for water with swim tires jet perpulsion bildge pump] for that matter if the show room wearhouse is big enuff it could all be reddy for delivery within 24 hrs from that site.

[mudbug3]

This may be a 6x6/8x8 amphib forum so one would expect a "new" 6-8 wheel amphib to start there. You've already stated the obvious to me. To sell into the fast paced 2x4/4x4 market you need speed, suspension, . . . Put a tub on the 4 wheelers design.

Ken Hiltz


I think building an aluminum tub around an atv is a great idea. The majority of people who own atv's know their limitations. With an aluminum tub built in different sizes to fit most popular atv's , you could then drop the whole atv into the alumium tub. Remove the suspension and use a short axle and universal joint to tie into the front and rear differentials. On the out side of the aluminum tub you could build attactments to hold the atv suspension parts that you took off. You would then have water cooling, access to the after market engine and clutch hop up parts, fuel injection, 4 and 5 valve heads, and a suspension seat built in. Most atv riders can't relate to an amphib that uses a briggs or Kolier engine. To the atv riders this is just a plastic bath tub with wheels and a lawn mower engine. Imagine the reaction that you'd get driving through a really challenging mud hole with water in it and lots of atv riders watching you drive through it. Words like " Yeah , I guess so, with 800 Can-am or 800 Polaris stuffed inside of an aluminum tub that floats' ! The great thing about this idea, is the cost of building a machine like this would come down a whole lot, and lots of atv riders would enjoy being able to use their favorite atv, but now able to go places that they always wanted to, but never could.

[spyder]

check out these links
ATV Amphibear Kit - Amphibear
DRIFTER ATV FLOATATION SYSTEM
Picture: Floating ATV 5 provided by T-MotorSports Pomona, CA 91767

[roblynn]

Ken Hiltz


I think building an aluminum tub around an atv is a great idea. The majority of people who own atv's know their limitations. With an aluminum tub built in different sizes to fit most popular atv's , you could then drop the whole atv into the alumium tub. Remove the suspension and use a short axle and universal joint to tie into the front and rear differentials. On the out side of the aluminum tub build attactments to hold the atv suspension parts that you took off. You would then have water cooling, access to the after market engine and clutch hop up parts, fuel injection, 4 and 5 valve heads, and a suspension seat built in. Most atv riders can't relate to an amphib that uses a briggs or Kolier engine. To the atv riders this is just a plastic bath tub with wheels and a lawn mower engine. Imagine the reaction that you'd get driving through a really challenging mud hole with water in it and lots of atv riders watching you drive through it. Words like " Yeah , I guess so, with 800 Can-am or 800 Polaris stuffed inside of an aluminum tub that floats' ! The great thing about this idea, is the cost of building a machine like this would come down a whole lot, and lots of atv riders would enjoy being able to use their favorite atv, but now able to go places that they always wanted to, but never could.

i think the idea is pritty good but it would probbly be fare from proffitable. iv been around bikes quads and 6x6s all my life and vary few bikes are close in build and parts . yes allot of parts cross ref but there just to many different modles and chassis.
for example most guys that would be interested in a product like this would have a 4x4 quad. lets use my 4x4 arctic cat for a guinny pig .

its a 2004 400cc 4x4 and came in 4 or 5 different build types. one had a semi auto trans with a sraight rear axle , one a full auto snow machine style clutch with straight axle , like mine is full auto with full independent suspension . now this is one bike by one manufacture .
i love the idea of having the big four stroke power plant. one big differance between most atv riders and aatv riders is most aatv riders know how to make the most of the h.p. they have on hand while there atv cousins dont often use the obundance of power they have on tap at any time .
how many guys with an aatv have been climbing a hill or in a big mud hole thinking " man if i only had anouther 20 h.p. i would do this with ezz" just becuase you have h.p. dosent mean you hold it wide open every where ya go but its great to have when ya want it, and i would personaly would love to see a more hi-tec v twin producing more h.p. in aatv.
here is a good example i bought a new honda 450-r race quad and it was of the new gen hi-rev 4 stroke motors .
out of the box the motor was right around 40 h.p. +or -4h.p. i built that small 450cc motor to put out 72 h.p. . ya cant make a briggs or kolor do that and have any dependabilaty at all if it could ever even come close to thoughs numbers?
im not saying these giant numbers are wanted by everybody but the option of having a platform that can produce this should be in place with the price range these new units are in.
i think the only feasible way to do all this is a total new design stand alone unit. with options of power plants ranging from briggs as an entry level clear up to lets say a 700 or 800 cc suzuki v twin quad style 4 stroke . i know suzuki and kawasaki both sell motors because arctic cat had both powerplants in the erly 2000s

[roblynn]

yha it looks to me like they came as close to a universal fit as possible with that pontoon style set up .

[jpswift1]

here is a good example i bought a new honda 450-r race quad and it was of the new gen hi-rev 4 stroke motors .
out of the box the motor was right around 40 h.p. +or -4h.p. i built that small 450cc motor to put out 72 h.p. . ya cant make a briggs or kolor do that and have any dependabilaty at all if it could ever even come close to thoughs numbers?
im not saying these giant numbers are wanted by everybody but the option of having a platform that can produce this should be in place with the price range these new units are in.

Did you put your quad on the dyno to determine these numbers? Was this measured at the wheels? Could you post up some scans of the dyno printout of your runs if you did actually dyno your quad? What did you do to get 72HP out of the 450? And you talk about reliability of these motors. How often do you have to adjust valves, replace the timing chain and how often do you have to change the oil? The Honda 450 is not a super reliable motor, and it requires lots of maintenance. I can promise you a Briggs or Kohler V twin will be cheaper to fix and more reliable than a Honda 450 motor. Now take a Honda XR RFVC motor and you've got a different story, but I'm not going to veer off topic. Next, the Honda 450s are liquid cooled and Briggs and Kohlers aren't so that's part of the reason they won't make as much horsepower. And you don't think you can get high horsepower out of a Briggs or Kohler and have it still be reliable? That's incorrect. Contact Al Hodges at Performance V twins and speak to him about it. Performance V-Twins

So after I explained in a previous thread about the costs that AATV manufacturers incur with the designs they currently use, you still think they charge too much and should offer some sort of quad engine for the current prices they're charging? That would put the price through the roof, but I'm not going to tell you. Give ODG or Recreatives a call and suggest this to them and tell them their prices are too high for what they're currently producing and see what they tell you and you'll see for yourself.

Like I said before, you really need to spend more time researching and reading the many threads throughout 6X6World.

[roblynn]

hi again jp, no im sorry i do not have the dyno sheets any longer they went with the bike when i sold it about six years ago i may still have pics of the bike and i would trully have to sit back and think for days on everything i did to that bike becuase it was a little learning curve for me being of the newer style motors not to mention i got rid of it years ago.
a short list i can remember is i put a curtis sparks full exuast system and cams shaved the head,valves , springs , pulled the case apart and releaved the bearings . 13.5/1 489cc piston and deglazed cylender. of coarse rejetted the carb and i ran uni filter .over-rev limiter box versha clutches and light basket light flywheel i dont remember the brands of half the parts i used any more.

and your right jp it is a higher maint motor but the maint isent to bad it was allways in the valve shives . the valves arent adjustable like the lower rev motors they take shims. i never had to replace timing chains or anything like that. i wouldent trully want a motor like this in an aatv to start with . once built it was all mid range and top end much like a two stroke ,even beffor built it was that way just had a little more low end.its to costly for a machine like an aatv and not reliable enuff in my opinion to offset the cost of just runing a good ol two stroke'cheap and ez to fix' as for the oil i only ran royal perple and chainged it after every ride due to all the costly machine work on the motor i wasent willing to risk a lower end oil clapping out the bottom end. and yes this was a costly motor as parts go i remember my wife getting mad more than once over that bike . but this dose not chainge my opinion that a bigger bore low rev quad style motor isent a perfect fit .
as for the briggs motors go i wont speek on that because i dont have to much personale experience with there larger v twins.
i would like to say a kohler motor isent cheap to work on either and vary prone to head gasket failer and head worpage. i had one in my toro z master that wouldent stay together more than 20 hours without fail. and it was all top end problems due to poor air cooling design . and i was by fare not the only person with this problem just google it and you will see its a flaw in design

" any body that has one keep it and all air cooling passages around the motor vary clean"

i also dont understand your comment about 'its liquid cooled so it makes more power' thats like saying a car is red so that meens its fast. how many 40 + hp. air cooled two strokes are out there for example i do agree liquid cooling is a must once a motor reaches a certain point but fare from a power producer.
i would say more of a nessesity to producing alot of hp out of a small displacment.
.and by the way jp just because im new to your forum dosent mean im ignorant to what you obviosly love, im not here to challange you or any body ells just want to talk and throw ideas aroud.
part of this sites banter is ' positive family freindly way' i dont feel the repoor between you and i is positive or freindly
have i done something wrong that you feel the need to call me out on my every word and search for a short comming in any thing i say?
IF SO IM SORRY . im just looking for a way to despose of some of this free time i have till work starts in the spring.
i can find anouther site on anphibs if my ways bother you this bad, sence your a paying member here and all..

IF SO IM SORRY

[Bw6]

Man I can't believe this thread has gone on for for long, lol. It caught my attention, and looked familiar so I went back to the first posts and there I was, (sign of old age). So, here is an updated take on the subject: There are only a hand full of people that frequent this site that have actually built an AATV from scratch, and only one that I know who is successful and that's Matt's Muddox, so hats off to Matt! I say I may have done (100's) of everything from concept design dwg's, to fully detailed designs, and built a few of them. However that does not make me an expert, far from it. But I do have an opinion, that being because the recreational market is so small compared to ATV/UTV's that any successful enterprise needs some commercial (golden goose) product, to subsidize the recreational end of the market. That is true for the Argo and the Muddox. Argo right now I've heard has cut way back in production and has layed off key factory people. So it's a tough go even if you have a good product.

However when it comes to design we all have an opinion of what would a winner in the recreational market. I'm a believer in not re-inventing the wheel. The ATV companies have spent MILLIONS in R&D in constant improvements to their line of products, so why not adapt that technology to an AATV. How to execute that design can vary but I believe that is the way to go.

[George]

I talked to Matt O. about 5 years ago about creating new Attex bodies for all us Attex fans. If I remember right, he told me we would need to find 80 people willing to spend $1,000 each to break even on making our own upper and lower halves from scratch (since the original molds are M.I.A.).

I now understand that an individual can't build a quality machine at a better price than those already in production. Even if you have the skills and tooling (like Whipper), your time has value too. If you have these resources and are willing to spend the time building a machine for yourself, you're not available to do other things that may generate income or some other intrinsic value.

The most practical thing to do is buy a cheap wreck that can be repaired and modify it as best you can to meet your needs.

I see this thread more as a fantasy "What if" conversation.....sort of like what I do when I actually buy a lottery ticket (once every two years or so), it's fun to imagine the possibilities.

There's a thread on making black Hustler bodies and somewhere in the archives there's the one I mentioned about making new Attex poly bodies.....heck, a bunch of us even IMed each other about making new poly bodies for the old Attex tank trainers.....that was a few years ago. Here's to the "pipe dreams"


I think your opinions have value Roblynn. If you make a statement of fact, you should be prepared to back it up. Personally, I don't know enough about 4-stroke engines to challenge you and I only know enough about the engine in my racer to keep it running. Swift, on the other hand, is pretty knowledgeable. If you can provide evidence to your claims, there are a bunch of people here who would find that information very valuable and would appreciate you for sharing it.

[Beeman]

If floating quads became the new amphib, the sites logo would have to change from the no entry symbol to two red pontoons :P

When I got an email of a new post from my subscription to this thread, I thought Mr. Mallards was back.

[locolouie]

has anyone given thought to a tv series thru the outdoor channel like they do for fishers atv or dirt traxx or any other atv shows to promote our sport ,maybe this is what we need to do to jump start the recreation part and this could lead to maybe production of more aatv's

[amphibious drew]

has anyone given thought to a tv series thru the outdoor channel like they do for fishers atv or dirt traxx or any other atv shows to promote our sport ,maybe this is what we need to do to jump start the recreation part and this could lead to maybe production of more aatv's

I've asked everyone I know, but no one will sponsor a bunch of guys to film me driving around the woods, non the less sponsor me to drive around the woods to be filmed. I am currently accepting sponsorship applications though.

[roblynn]

I talked to Matt O. about 5 years ago about creating new Attex bodies for all us Attex fans. If I remember right, he told me we would need to find 80 people willing to spend $1,000 each to break even on making our own upper and lower halves from scratch (since the original molds are M.I.A.).

I now understand that an individual can't build a quality machine at a better price than those already in production. Even if you have the skills and tooling (like Whipper), your time has value too. If you have these resources and are willing to spend the time building a machine for yourself, you're not available to do other things that may generate income or some other intrinsic value.

The most practical thing to do is buy a cheap wreck that can be repaired and modify it as best you can to meet your needs.

I see this thread more as a fantasy "What if" conversation.....sort of like what I do when I actually buy a lottery ticket (once every two years or so), it's fun to imagine the possibilities.

There's a thread on making black Hustler bodies and somewhere in the archives there's the one I mentioned about making new Attex poly bodies.....heck, a bunch of us even IMed each other about making new poly bodies for the old Attex tank trainers.....that was a few years ago. Here's to the "pipe dreams"


I think your opinions have value Roblynn. If you make a statement of fact, you should be prepared to back it up. Personally, I don't know enough about 4-stroke engines to challenge you and I only know enough about the engine in my racer to keep it running. Swift, on the other hand, is pretty knowledgeable. If you can provide evidence to your claims, there are a bunch of people here who would find that information very valuable and would appreciate you for sharing it.

ok i guess to some point i can understand sence you put it that way .. so iv posted some pictures of different stuff under miscellaneous in the gallery . im not sure what all pics up loaded but i want you guys to see im not just talking crap . im sorry i no longer have the 450r or the dyno info that was sold with it.

so no i can not 'prove that to anybody at this point, but im one of thoughs guys that modify everything i get my hands on.
youll see a lifted f-350 dooly in the pics too that was allso put on a dyno and pushed out just under 800 h.p. and almost 1200 ft lb of tork . youll see afew tool boxs a miller 300 amp a/c d/c machine that will stick weld ,mig weld,heli arc ,and tig. and yes i fully know how to use it preforming these prosesses.

you should allso see a hypertherm 600 plasma yes i allso know how to use this. my arctic cat is in there, there should be a pic of a garage bay with four or five youth quads and some zero turns and riding mowers .every youth quad in there was moded by me .the arctic cat is an 04 bought in erly 06 with three wheels frount end smashed into the handle bars and a locked motor fully rebuilt by me ,frame,motor ,all mods.

you should see a fith wheel hydro dump trailer that i use for my company in the one garage bay that im in the middle of cutting apart and replating for use this spring. so as i cant prove everything i can prove most .
any body on this site is welcome to come to my house pet my dogs and have a beer and see for them self that i am who i say i am (ill even bye the first case).
if you look in the one pic there is a home depot style zero turn in the pic with a new briggs twin i said in my one post that i wasent willing to comment on the briggs, not because i dont know anything about it just because iv never had a probblem out of it or had to work on it, so i dont feel its my place to say anything of it untill sutch time as i do then i may form my owen "opinion" which is all i have given on this site to start with is "opinions" and i feel some have made unfare judjments due to my 'opinions'. im not the kind of guy that sits back and waits for others to do for me i forge ahead inspite of what others think or say . some times thats a good thing and sometimes its a down fall. but in the end iv got everything i have by doing things my way including an awsome wife and five wounderfull kids that i love .you dont come accross all this by telling storys . i dont like being put in a possition to where as i have to prove my self nore do i try to make others unless they give resson . but if im made than i will .

that will be the last of my off subject posts ,if this dosent prove anything , pm me and we can meet up sometime and discuss in person.
any how so that this whole post isent off subject , i must say i dont at all feel that the current state of the economy is as needs be for a veture as this at this moment in time the more i think about it . it is a nice thought and gives me a warm fuzzy feeling inside to have the thought of being able to get up and go to work 'and make a living ' building something like this every day . from the dovelopment to the fabrication to the sales . it would all be fun . and somebody said something of a poly tub that it would take 80 ppl at a grand a crack to get into the black. thats why i think an aluminum hual is the way to go. the only time plastics seem to be proffitable is in mass production the dies and extrusion pess,s are astronomical in price .besides the r&d would be so much ezer if made out of aluminum or a light weight alloy and could be brought to market without a but load of retooling ,it would be as simple as building afew new jiggs for the welders to use in the fab prosses. p.s. im happy to hear some of what i think my be of interest to some here

[roblynn]

has anyone given thought to a tv series thru the outdoor channel like they do for fishers atv or dirt traxx or any other atv shows to promote our sport ,maybe this is what we need to do to jump start the recreation part and this could lead to maybe production of more aatv's

i have seen some argos on afew outdoor shows (mostly foul hunting duck,goose) not to many ppl i meet around here even know of 6x6 or 8x8 anphibs other than argo. i think its is mostly due to the fact there is vary little advertising done by the market. most ppl that do know are older now and grew up around one or knew somebody that had one. iv looked into tv advertising and i can see why they shy away from it . for meet to advertise for one week with a therty sec spot on a locale tv station off peak hrs was around 5 grand .
i wouldent even want to know what kind of cash it would take to go national in prime time