Max production delay

[james gerber]

its a big move to update the t-20 for a unstable and small market, that being said, (until it is) as the past will show
the t-20 is one of the best options out there. can't blame Matt for acquiring that option. when the copy write expired
and was not renewed. (the personal all went out the widow) opening up an avenue for other manufactures to get in on the action
business is business. just the way it happens. yes i would be upset too and once was. i know from the the past this is a fact.
like i said before. good luck to all manufacturers that can try to keep this hobby,sport and business.

[james gerber]

sorry, to clarify not copy write but patten, maybe a better definition.

[marauder]

I know at this point I probably sound like a broken record, but if the AATV manufacturers wanted to sell more vehicles what they need is more exposure to people that have never seen or heard of the six and eight wheel amphibious all terrain vehicle, and the best way to do that is to have a great big dealer network that works for you by going to outdoor shows, country fairs, atv get togethers, and other off-road vehicle shows. The reason there aren't more dealers around is because the manufacturers make the dealers take on ALL the risk of trying to sell them. If the OEMs would front potential dealers the machines on a loaned basis and take them back when they aren't selling in that particular area you would see a lot more dealers in this country because the dealers wouldn't be stuck with old stock that never sold and wouldn't have to put up the large amount of money up front to actually buy two or three machines to start a dealership. Until the dealership/factory arrangement changes I don't see more dealers coming into the fold and hence the word will not get out about the great little vehicles we call AATVs.

[TheSilverBuick]

I've wanted a 6x6 since I first saw one several years ago, but several folks around where I lived were pretty sure I'd hate it. "They're slow", "They're bumpy", etc. So I've held off until one popped up for $700, so was effectively in a price range I could toy with and determine if I like or dis-like it without breaking the bank. It of course needs work, and I'm okay with that, helps learn their in's and out's. My big draw to the Max over Argo is simply the two stick controls. I like the "idea" of it. Until I get it back together and out in the hills, I won't know for sure if I like the sticks or the machine. BUT I plan on finding out. If I like the sticks and the machine I would like to get a nice Max IV, if I hate the sticks and like the machine I'll look at Argos. If I don't like it at all, I'll hopefully be able to sell it for at least what I'll have in it, which will likely be around $1,000-$1,100 by the time I have it running and driving real well.

I'm really hoping I like it and would like to see some shape improvements for passenger seat comfort, re-locatable sticks, tub re-enforcements via new mold shape, etc. See where there are common parts that can be used to lower build costs, such as different axle bearing options (availability at a local parts store!), sprocket cross compatibility with motorcycles/ATV's for lower cost and more part availability, etc. These are things I look for in product improvement that make me decide between rebuilding a 30+ year old machine versus getting something new or built in the previous few years. Nothing wrong with maintaining status quo if you are covering your bills and as an owner happy with that, but if you want to grow your market, rarely does advertising alone work.

And I don't want an 8x8

[dgeiman]

One of the issues that the 6x6 and 8x8 faces is people are curious but are cautious of them at the same time. I have had a lot of people talk to me at the gas station, convenience store or where ever and they think its cool until they ask (How do you steer it?) when I explain thats pretty much the end of it. I belong to a big hunt club and a lot of guys there think my machine is cool but they can go buy a 4 wheeler a trailer to haul it on and have it in the same day for less than the cost of one of 6x6 or 8x8 machines. Another note is financing when you go to Honda, Yamaha or whatever dealer its just like buying a car if you need financing they have it right there. I am not saying the manufacturers should become a credit company I think these are some of reasons the 6x6 and 8x8 machines don't have a big market. I think advertising and exposure would help but also along with that as Marauder said you need a dealer network where people can drive, touch and feel these machines. I believe one other thing is the maintenance on these machines is much more than the average person wants to deal with. Just my 2 cents

[TheSilverBuick]

I believe one other thing is the maintenance on these machines is much more than the average person wants to deal with. Just my 2 cents

Another point on where some R&D time and money can go. A grease manifold for single point greasing, a place to put a accessory drain pan(or funnel and pan) to remove fluids, heck even durable labels in the tub of each maintenance point (or has this been done?), and easier access to check and adjust the bands! Or provide cheater tools for the task like what come with new motorcycles.

[TheSilverBuick]

its a big move to update the t-20 for a unstable and small market, that being said, (until it is) as the past will show
the t-20 is one of the best options out there. can't blame Matt for acquiring that option. when the copy write expired
and was not renewed. (the personal all went out the widow) opening up an avenue for other manufactures to get in on the action
business is business. just the way it happens. yes i would be upset too and once was. i know from the the past this is a fact.
like i said before. good luck to all manufacturers that can try to keep this hobby,sport and business.

Taking a page from sand rails, has anyone ever looked at finding a small transmission (one gear and reverse?) and use an open-carrier differential on one of the axles and chains to the others, then simply using a pair of mechanical or disc brakes actuated by the levers? When you brake one side it still puts power to the other side. I would think it'd be less wear than bands and a single manual transmission (with a driven clutch) worth of parts than a pair bolted together.

A 2-stroke that can be reversed (like a modern snowmobile's) could probably get away without a transmission altogether and just run a driven clutch right to a differential pinion. R&D!

*Edit*
There are lots of ATV differentials on E-bay, I wonder if any of them are open type or can be converted to open type. I was looking at rear diffs for CRV's and Subaru's, and while they would work they look a little heavy for a small engine.

Here is one from a Honda. Bolt some rotors and shafts with sprockets to the sides, etc.

[62saab]

"..a unstable and small market...."- yes,it certainly is,with many owners much younger than the vehicle's design......One of my previous posts asked about the parts availability for the MAX;those that responded indicated there wasn't a problem and wouldn't be one for quite some time. That answer is only marginally correct if one is willing to search multiple sources nowadays,in addition to a bit of improvising as well. So,yes,it certainly is an unstable and small market. Perhaps the market for these vehicles has plateaued ? 6X6/8X8's have always been a niche market/ cottage industry........

[marauder]

Silver, I like the way you think, let's hope the Max line's new owners think the same and come up with some real innovations, especially in the area of driveline efficiency, I can't think of a more inefficient way of steering than braking one side of the vehicle, especially when going up hill, way to kill the momentum and waste fuel. Good luck on your adventures with your Max, I for one like the handlebar steering on the Argos better than the sticks since you can brace yourself and hang on better to handlebars when in the rough stuff, but I imagine it is a personal preference thing, I for one prefer the engine location of the Max over the Argo due to less noise and vibration locating it in the rear away from the operator. But you will learn all this by exploring your options when researching the different machines. Best of luck!

[TheSilverBuick]

especially in the area of driveline efficiency, I can't think of a more inefficient way of steering than braking one side of the vehicle, especially when going up hill, way to kill the momentum and waste fuel.

The sorta nice thing about using an open carrier differential and braking is when brakes are applied to one side the other side receives all the power scrubbed off the braked side, or double what it had before for full braking. I haven't worked out the power flow through the T-20 to see if the power is pushed to the other side, but I don't think it is. A fair number of modern cars use the ABS system to cheat the system like this with traction control. When one side starts to slip the ECU applies the brake to the slipping side to push engine power to the wheel with more traction.

[whipper-ag]

whipper

[drykilned]

Is the new company going to produce parts for those of us who are antiquated and still own/operate the early machines? I personally have
a 1990 Max II that is still going strong. Here in Georgia, there are very few amphibs outside the BIG CITY.

[AndyL]

Any updates on the status of Max?

[jerseybigfoot]

The sorta nice thing about using an open carrier differential and braking is when brakes are applied to one side the other side receives all the power scrubbed off the braked side, or double what it had before for full braking. I haven't worked out the power flow through the T-20 to see if the power is pushed to the other side, but I don't think it is. A fair number of modern cars use the ABS system to cheat the system like this with traction control. When one side starts to slip the ECU applies the brake to the slipping side to push engine power to the wheel with more traction.

Argo has used an open diff for many years and will require additional power to turn while climbing. The T-20 does not. The only other trans that is more efficient than a t-20 is a fully clutched system.

[Rusty-Gunn]

An Argo is also not true 6 or 8 wheel drive either. Its one side drive. One has to apply brakes to the side that spins (wasting power) just to move power to the side that has less.
Its not so much of a problem with proper driving technique though.