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18 HP Vanguard Question

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  • #16
    Lance mentioned "rev kit" in the red spring thread so I got to typing, and put it here.

    Here's a refresher on what a rev kit is: Something marketed by performance v twins/al hodge. Stronger pushrods (briggs uses aluminum on one of the pushrods), valve spring retainers, spring shims for the stock springs, and a thinned flywheel key to advance ignition timing. The "rev kit" was designed for one of the vanguard class racers that doesn't allow aftermarket valve springs. It's fine for a stock cam, although pricey, as it minimizes spring pressure on the stock rocker arms and will still keep the valves from floating with a stock cam, like from 4 to 5 grand.

    However, if you put a real cam in it, the rev kit is worthless, as the stock springs are not enough near 5 grand and beyond. You may not run over 5 on purpose, but it happens and it's important to set the exhaust valve down gently on it's seat since it's red hot.

    You don't need the billet trinket al hodge pushrods when steel vanguard pushrods for a couple $ will run 8,000 rpm and never fail. George at E.C. Distributing will set you up with double springs and retainers for far less $.

    Rutledge, running near 5 grand is getting up there for stock rods, not much of a cushion. Your hard cranking may be too much clearance on the exhaust valve lash, as it would degate the function of the steel ball sticking out of the heel of the cam lobe to hold the valve open during cranking. Did you move the piston down the bore a 1/4" past TDC when setting lash? If you don't, you'll be setting lash on that ball, = no compression release.

    If that doesn't work, take the starter apart and clean the grooves between the commutator segments and put brushes in it if they're worn crooked. Lube the bushings, too. My starter wouldn't crank mine hot, (cam w/no compression release, long rods), but after going through the starter again and setting lash to .005 ( I had been running more clearance for torque) it has been starting well. Also, the duration of an aftermarket cam will give you a little "compression release" effect. The only real cure for a "never have to think about it again" is a different flywheel w/ring gear and a real starter for $250 ish.

    A couple of my friends with frontiers are having sluggish cranking on their 23's. They sound like weak starters/batteries, etc. George says the #1 cause of hard cranking in the vanguards is excessive valve lash. Have to keep in mind the "easy spin" briggs starting is built around an undersized, low amp starter, meant to be cranked by any half charged lawn and garden battery, depending on the exhaust valve being held off it's seat at below cranking rpm by the compression release. The compression release is a work of art, however, very neat design. There is a spring on it that can fail, causing the comp release to not work. It's not common to fail on vanguards, but is on some other briggs engines.

    I would also think twice about not using the long rods. A cam will take some static compression ratio away. If you drove my 18 I think it'd convince you. It is long rod/shaved piston and thick gasket. You can boost pump gas with a lead additive, just carry a quart of it with you instead of hauling AV gas around. You'll never make any power at 8 to 1 compression without going to a bigger engine or forced induction. Well, that's my opinion, not fact. Run the idea by George. To get carried away here, you could do the long rod/shaved piston/flat top, and put 23 hp heads on it with bigger chambers to lower the compression. Then you'd need a different intake manifold.. which would come with a 2 barrel George prefers to go the other way, put smaller chamber 16 hp heads on the 18/20 blocks. With a thin gasket and shave the head about .040 He says compression makes torque, and he likes to build the vanguard for torque, rather than rpm. The 23 heads would be an rpm engine with it's ports, but there's no way to get the compression back up.
    To Invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. (Thomas Edison)

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    • #17
      Roger,

      I do have the EC Dist. double springs and retainers installed. Bought 2 more stock steal pushrods and thin head gaskets. I have checked the valve lash several times with a 1/4 turn past TDC. I have not noticed any difference from TDC to 1/4 past. Have even check with one valve open then checking the other. I will check some more.

      I actually think my starter might be hurting. Good point on this. I can recall several times hitting the starter and it just clicks and about the third time it turns. Another project.

      Soooo, with the above items installed you would say that I am open for a cam, long rods and shaved pistons now. Right? Not to mention exhaust work.

      Hey thanks for the input,
      Rutledge
      2007 Max IV Hot Rodded Vanguard 18HP?
      Hi-Speed Clutch, Vampire ASX, 35MPH

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      • #18
        Yeah, you are ready. The upper part of my post was for other peoples info, not yours.. I'm not so forgetfull that I forgot what you've done so far

        I'd add some basic head work, just port blending and radiusing.. you can send them to George if you don't want to do it. You WILL feel the next mods, in a major seat of the pants way

        Will need to lighten the weights in the engine clutch just a tad to let it rev; your max clutch is different than my argo so I don't have the details.
        To Invent, you need a good imagination and a pile of junk. (Thomas Edison)

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        • #19
          Just got done riding again to get some numbers to post on another thread. I am happy right now with the power that my 18hp engine is making and putting to the ground. What I would like is my current low gearing with more top speed.

          I thought that running more rpm's was the way to obtain the extra speed that I wanted, but found that at 4500rpm I only go 2 mph faster than at 4000rpm. I also thought about taller tires, but that leads to other issues. Right now my top speed is about 22 mph with 3psi in the super terra grips. I am sure I would be faster with 9psi on the road. To bad we couldn't adjust tire psi on the fly.

          Any ideas are welcomed

          Rutledge
          2007 Max IV Hot Rodded Vanguard 18HP?
          Hi-Speed Clutch, Vampire ASX, 35MPH

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          • #20
            Is there anyone on the site who can take a measurement off either a 16 or 18 hp Vanguard?

            I need the distance between the screws that hold the pull-start recoil assembly to the engine. I need the distance between a catty corner pair. I believe that there are only 4 screws so either pair would be fine.

            Thanks.
            Banned

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            • #21
              The bolts are spaced 5.25" apart. There are 4 of them evenly spaced around the recoil assembly. Are you adding a cold air intake to the Attex?

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              • #22
                Originally posted by liflod View Post
                The bolts are spaced 5.25" apart. There are 4 of them evenly spaced around the recoil assembly. Are you adding a cold air intake to the Attex?
                Thanks Lance,

                Yes, I am. It'll be the last thing I need to do to be ready for Ledges.

                I ordered an intake duct from Leo's Argo last winter. I hope to have it in place this weekend. I figured in the meantime I could experiment with ways to hold it in place but the machine is not handy for measurements as it is 190 miles away.

                Thanks again.
                Banned

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                • #23
                  I think most of them are secured to the body of the machine and there is just a rubber ring that seals it to the engine. Of course the only one I've dealt with was on a Kohler and it did not have the recoil starter. You may do the same and cut a slot for the recoil cord to run through.

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                  • #24
                    Hey Lance,

                    Mine came with a rubber (soft plastic actually) seal. The seal has an area notched out for the recoil. I thought it better to try and mount the whole thing to the engine so that I could adjust the belt tension without having to remount the duct each time.

                    I intend to have the top of the duct rest on my homemade engine cover in such a way that it bears the burden of supporting duct's weight. In this way, there won't be as much stress on the four points that I'll use to anchor it to the engine. Those points will be used more to maintain a tight seal than support the duct.
                    Last edited by George; 06-11-2008, 12:05 PM.
                    Banned

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                    • #25
                      RI uses a piece of uni-strut that allows the shroud to move back and forth with the engine. That way the shroud isn't vibrating constantly with the engine.

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                      • #26
                        Engine and Clutch Update

                        Hey Guy's,

                        Just an update on the engine mods and clutch mods that I have done.

                        First of all the high speed clutch from Richard is the best mod that I have done period!

                        The engine is holding up very well, with the minor stuff added that is posted in this thread especially now that I know how to adjust the lash at 1/4 inch past and not a 1/4 turn past.

                        I have gotton away from turning high rpm due to the new clutch install. I stay between 4,000 and 4,200 rpm.

                        I took out the time advance key and went back with the stock key. Low rpm acceleration is better, but high rpm acceleration is a little less. It also doesnt want to rev past 4,300 rpm without a great deal of effort. With the timing key it would runup to 4,800 rpm pretty quick.

                        I find that my type of riding calls for better accel down low. When/if I install new rods and a moded cam I will probably go back to the advance key.

                        With the high speed clutch, I am see about 25-27 mph at 4,000rpm and can hit 30 and over above 4,200rpm. These numbers have chanced some from the orginal install maybe due to the new drive belt tension and break in.

                        Remember that my stock steup was 18mph at 4,000 rpm. Needless to say, I am very pleased with the mods.

                        Rutledge
                        2007 Max IV Hot Rodded Vanguard 18HP?
                        Hi-Speed Clutch, Vampire ASX, 35MPH

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          I bumped this thred because it is definatly one of the best "how to hop up a small engine" threds i've ever seen and it dates back to 2007, some pretty extensive work here but seems to cover it all
                          He who has not cruised the back country in a 6x6 , has not lived life to it's fullest
                          A Mans level of mechanical education directly corresponds to the level pain suffered while getting it

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                          • #28
                            I'll 2nd the "Bump this Thread"
                            Thanks Roger for great information. Your advice is still appreciated.

                            I think I figured out my hard starting issue with the electric starter on my Max IV. If I adjusted the valves wrong, I defeated my compression release. I'll post my findings once thier found.

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