Track Tuners....What are they?

[riotwarrior]

so seen quite a few threads on tracks and read all I can.

i keep seeing track tuners mentioned.

wtf are they, how do they work, what do they look like and so on.

Also read about only having front and rear axles driving is this correct for 8 and 6 wheelers alike?

my six wheeler as the middle axle delibertly set at least an inch lower than fron or read...those two are set at the same level up from middle.

how would my setup be affected? my chains run from jack shaft to rear alone, and from jcak shaft to middle and front together.I can technically remove an axle chain and still maintain forward motion


anyway I digresz...wtf are track tuners

thanks

Al

[Old Tucker]

Track Tuners are a device that bolts between your axle and wheel. And it allows your wheel to free wheel independent from your axle. It is used on your mid axles to reduce chain windup. And there are some other advantages to using them.
Chain windup is when one axle is working against the other putting extra load on the chain. And is caused by different size of tires It only takes a very small deference in circumference of the tires to cause a this.

[JoeMeg]

Track tuners

adairargosales - Track Tuners

[riotwarrior]

Wow, thanks guys,

When it's time to run tracks, I'll just run drive chains to front and rear axles then...leave out the middle axle.

Seeing as I run a drive chain from my jack shaft down and slightly back to the middle axle the to the front, I can bypass the middle axle with a whole new single axle chain....SAWEEEEEET

You guys rock, thanks for the info.

BTW For tracks, I'm guessing tyre diameter is the issue, that creates a need for tuners.

However when not running tracks static loaded radius is where the real measurement needs to take place, from the axles center to the ground, all axles/tyres need be the same static loaded radius...that's usually achievable by tuning with air pressure!

Thanks again

[Twizted1]

And really it depends on what type of tracks you run. With some tracks you won't need to run track tuners.

[john swenson]

would a spring loaded chain tensioner help eliminate chain windup / johnboy va.

[big bear]

what type of tracks don't need then. I'm thinking about using tuners.

[Buzz]

So far....I honestly think all of the tracks I've seen or tested should probably use them. Problem is, the tires are going to need to slip a little as they'll never quite match the speed of the track-components moving under them perfectly. Some designs (like adair's pro-series for example) will allow the centers to slip much easier than they would have to with lets say..a rubber track. Argo's typical tire indexing should still be used though. Normally, when a track wraps an end-tire, it can't slip as easily because of the increased contact area and increased friction that "end-wrapping" causes. So you still have potential wind-up that can occur with any differences in tire circumfrence, specifically end tires as everything is connected via chains. Tire indexing "helps" here, as does an open-crosser design that allows the tires to break contact with the crossers....but the crossers are fixed on center at the tread location and are unable to move or "adjust" to the tire tread...if you want to split hairs. Tire lugs frequently "side-load" track crossers, which can make it a bit harder to slip.

Rubber track- slipping is very difficult, tuners necessary.

Another design, an elevated belt track, (escargo/hybrid/channel etc) specifically drives the track belting slower than the center tires are driven (w/o track tuners), so you see a very large performance increase when tuners are installed with a single elevated-belt track wrapping more than (2) tires. Here it's necessary because you are mixing end-wrap tires and non-end-wrap tires (center), so the track components driven by all axles do not match tire tread speeds of all axles. Interestingly enough, when you see the end-wrap tires of an elevated-belt track "grab" or drive the crossers out at the tread level, the crossers have a very large range of movement here that allows them to "self-adjust" to the tire tread...even though on the sidwall they're rigidly affixed to the belting. Additionally, they too are also an open-crosser design which allows the tires to break contact with individual crossers on the track. Kind of the best of both worlds in regards to wind-up....as long as you can match tire-tread and crosser-cleat speeds. You can break tire contact, and the crossers can self-adjust to what the tires require.
Track tuners is one way to match tire-tread and track component speeds if tracking more that (2) tires. Tracking only (2) tires is another- as you have 2 end-wrap tires so all track components match all tire-tread speeds. Now I am messing around with a dual-track (think argo centaur) concept using an elevated-belt open crosser Escargo-style track. The benefit is that unlike typical dual-track chain-windup seen with a rubber (constant contact, high friction) dual-track like the centaur has, a twin-track elevated belt track matches tire-tread speed with track component (crosser) speed (at the tread level) of all tires. The crossers are also able to self-adjust to the tires in the event of small differences in circumfrence from the factory or ability to maintain air pressure. And being open-crosser, the tires can break contact with the crossers too, which helps I suppose. The centaur uses very smooth turf tires which at least helps with some slipping inside a rubber dual-track, and I believe they are an 8-ply tire -probably more consistant sizing from the factory in an attempt to help as much as possible.
I am experimenting with different "indexing" patterns- on this little dual-track experiment. The more I think about it, it's easy to come up with theories. But testing is the only way to see what happens for sure. Hope that helps.

[big bear]

I see the new xti has a 2 or 4 track system. The 4 track unit should get rid of the chain wind up issues. How much difference is there between the new avenger and the xti (wheel spacing) besides the extra width of the xti.
Can a 4 track system be used on the avenger if smaller tires are used ?
anyone ?
Thanks.

[Buzz]

I'd have to investigate to answer the wheel-spacing question on the xti...myself not being an argo dealer. Possibly different wheels, I haven't studied up but it'd be easy enough to figurte out. I believe some of the centaur rims (maybe the same?) have a 2.25" offset (12" rim) from the centerline. Required wheel spacers would just depend on how much clearance you were after in addition to that I think. Chain wind-up may be an issue with a rubber 4-track system. My opinion (without researching argo insider type stuff) is that the more consistent size of the turf tires and heavier ply rating means less wind-up present itself, however it doesn't take much difference in circumfrence for slipping to be necessary. The question is "can" the tires slip inside the rubber 4-track system easily? I imagine also that they run a little less track tension to maybe help this issue. You might be able to get away with this and still be able to "drive" the tracks reliably as they're pretty short tracks and end-wrapped on both tires....it should be a little less prone to "failing" to drive the track. Basically all tires within the 4-track system are "end-wrap" tires, so slipping with the Rubber 4-track system "might" be difficult. That's a nice way of saying I "think" it works okay, and some of the tire choices, heavier-duty chain/bearings etc. on those machines can tolerate additional load probably to make this slipping happen. The tires unless perfectly uniform will have no option other than slipping.
The elevated belt crossers are much more forgiving, and I think the average person will be able to easily get away with non-perfect tires without binding. It shouldn't require a loose track, or expensive 8-ply tires, or an over-built drive train.
It all comes down to clearances. I believe an avenger will probably require tires in the neighborhood of 23" give or take to have acceptable clearances between axles 2 and 3....at least if you want an acceptable/agressive cleat height. So 22x10x8 189's, or "maybe" 24x10x8 189's.....I'll check on this in the days to come. 12" wide tire options on argo or mudd-ox rims (9") or even k-lock (8") are more difficult to find in smaller circumfrences for this use. At least anything that's durable and appropriate. Now if you move to a 12" rim.....which a lot of guys have or plan on getting for tires such as the new Vendetta, you also have a lot more options in the "turf" class where you can even maintain a 12" tire width but with a 22-24" tire diameters, which are perfect for this dual-track. This is my true belief anyway. I'm going to start out with 24x12x12 at101's which are very square and have some utility outside of just track use, but they're perfect for my plans. I'm just waiting on some K-lock 12" rims and it'll be go time. It'll have 1.5" thick repro crossers with 1/8" steel inserts (full thickness). Should be pretty cool. If you drop 3" in tire size, you lose 1.5" ground clearance, gain 1.5" of tub clearance above the tire, and gain the full 3" tire-to-tire clearance between axles.....for a dual track set up. Gives some interesting options anyway. I have one buddy with a frontier who runs a escargo hybrid track. I need to check on his machine and crossers to see whether or not the 24" argo tire on the avenger frame will have enough clearance. My gut tells me no......or at least if dual tracks fit with at least a 1+" cleat height, there won't be much of a safety margin left for front and rear tracks whose crossers pass each other in opposite directions. Maybe I'm wrong. The 22" argo tires or 12" rim with 12" wide tires (lots of options) might be needed. I know both of those options would work. For most guys, It would be much easier to just buy track-tuners with a single track set up. But for those who had the luxury of ordering a machine and picking tire size....just something to think about. There are other factors that made me want to go this route instead.

[foxvalley]

what type of tracks don't need then. I'm thinking about using tuners.

Not all tracks need the tuners,argo plastic tracks,and super tracks don't,my experience, also the pro series,and the chain tracks don't,along with the classic tracks.However,every setup is different,and there might be exeptions to this. Argo rubber tracks do,from my experience,with extremly mismatched tires(almost mandatory).

[Buzz]

all tracks benefit from them. Some just more than others. There will be times when your tires can even slip easily inside a rubber track. Other times it's very hard for them to slip. Runamucks slip easier inside tracks than more aggressive tires, especially if used in the winter time...makes sense. Some people won't need them with particular tracks and their tires. Other tires especially on middle axles under the weight of the machine can still "side-load" track crossers in the course of being driven, providing resistance to turning. Luckily open crosser tracks are able to break contact so this load does not snowball or remain too constant. Sometimes tire sizes vary enough that this can still happen. You're still never going to eliminate the slight differences in circumfrence of the end- axles. We do our best with indexing and air-pressure and open-crosser design. Just because a track benefits from track tuners does make it a bad track. I know nobody claims that. But all tracks (there are always factors that swing this decision more or less towards tuners) benefit from running them.

[big bear]

Thanks Buzz..
You made me think about the 4 track system and chain wind up. I forgot about the centre tires being larger thus creating an easier pivot point. With the 4 track system I guess the center tires are still there.
I missed the point whereas the 2 sizes of tires turn at different seeds causing chain issues. i was thinking that different sizes caused slippage inside the track causing stress against the track when in reality it is the sprockets turning at different speeds forcing one wheel to skid a little.
Its a little difficult to wrap my brain around the subject. It takes some thought..... and of course , ideas from this forum.
Great forum.
I think I will go to track tuners.

[Buzz]

big bear- I forget what kind of tracks you have, but having tuners gives you the most track options. You might not absolutely "need" them depending on your situation. Just remember that you need to run at least a 2.5" wheel spacer (last I heard) as those are the shortest tuners made that would match in width. Seems like some guys tend to end up with a spacer of some sort, even if it's narrower than that, so the jump to 2.5" is not that much. Unless the extra wheelbase is going to alter where you drive, I appreciate the added stablility (on land and water) that the wider wheelbase provides. It does add some extra stress to the hub flanges, after all it is a wheel spacer, but it's not excessively large. Lots of guys upgrade to the newer HD axles simply for the stronger hub flange if they don't already have an HDI machine....even if it's just through attrition over time.
Don't think you have to have them... you should if you are running a rubber track or an elevated-belt track, but they will benefit you even on other designs if you have agressive tires. Older machines with argo supertracks or pro-series tracks and very smooth tires won't benefit "as" much.

[foxvalley]

I don't see any benifit of useing tuners on certain track types, if your tires are close to being the same size,reguardless of tread design.Chain windup just doesn't happen,and if you dont need wheel spacers to run your tracks,like the pro series,or argo 13"plastic tracks, for example,why would you put undo stress on the hubs by extending them out 2,5" if its not needed.