Swamp Tracks

[otownskier]

Bought a lakefront house in Florida 2 years ago. Lake was hundreds of yards thru swamp and couldn't get to it. Spent last year clearing a trail through thick vegetation and muck so thick you'd sink in it. Got a new 2021 Argo Frontier 650 8x8 fitted with Beaver Dam tracks--they just go through anything down here in muck and the swamps...just can't get stuck no matter how hard I try or which mud bath or trail I take! Works well in lake too. Only way I can get to my lake--the bass, snakes, gators, and coyotes are not impressed....I go everywhere!
For me, Priceless!!!

[Buzz]

looks fun, a few questions for all
What was your track cost for a frontier 8x8 with 10”wide tires?
What thickness/ply and width are belts?
Is it full steel, full plastic, or hybrid, and what type of plastic (uhmw?), plastic thickness? UV-stabilized plastic?
I helped a gentleman up here who had a set of those and who had broken a couple grousers. So I am curious what the current specs are on those tracks.
Also, if I was you, I would consider orienting your middle tires to the “swim” position when in track mode (reversble rims). It may require swapping from left to right. And lower your air pressure on middle tires to around 1-1.5 lbs.

[john swenson]

great news ...nothing like having a go anywhere machine . have fun !! j.b.

[onlyonce]

looks fun, a few questions for all
What was your track cost for a frontier 8x8 with 10”wide tires?
What thickness/ply and width are belts?
Is it full steel, full plastic, or hybrid, and what type of plastic (uhmw?), plastic thickness? UV-stabilized plastic?
I helped a gentleman up here who had a set of those and who had broken a couple grousers. So I am curious what the current specs are on those tracks.
Also, if I was you, I would consider orienting your middle tires to the “swim” position when in track mode (reversble rims). It may require swapping from left to right. And lower your air pressure on middle tires to around 1-1.5 lbs.

I was curious myself and just looked on the Beaver dam website.They do provide quite a bit of info on their tracks.

[mightymaxIV]

Those tracks look bad to the bone!! I would like to know how well they swim. I would love to see them run in swamp conditions. I have been around Adair tracked machines for years but I have never had the opportunity to see beaver dam tracks in action.

[Sparx]

looks fun, a few questions for all
What was your track cost for a frontier 8x8 with 10”wide tires?
What thickness/ply and width are belts?
Is it full steel, full plastic, or hybrid, and what type of plastic (uhmw?), plastic thickness? UV-stabilized plastic?
I helped a gentleman up here who had a set of those and who had broken a couple grousers. So I am curious what the current specs are on those tracks.
Also, if I was you, I would consider orienting your middle tires to the “swim” position when in track mode (reversble rims). It may require swapping from left to right. And lower your air pressure on middle tires to around 1-1.5 lbs.

Hey Buzz, good to still see you around from time to time!
I keep my middle tires low but I did find after a couple thousand kms it does cause the sidewalls to wear faster then the corners. Not a big deal but something to keep in mind. I seem to wear my tires out before the tread does from this effect with my Escargo tracks. I've had to run tubes in the middle tires at least too cause the sidewalls are so weak. May upgrade to ITP MudLites or any other tire you might have a suggestion for price and 6 ply rating.
Gavin

[mightymaxIV]

Hey Buzz, good to still see you around from time to time!
I keep my middle tires low but I did find after a couple thousand kms it does cause the sidewalls to wear faster then the corners. Not a big deal but something to keep in mind. I seem to wear my tires out before the tread does from this effect with my Escargo tracks. I've had to run tubes in the middle tires at least too cause the sidewalls are so weak. May upgrade to ITP MudLites or any other tire you might have a suggestion for price and 6 ply rating.
Gavin

Are you running track Tuners on your middle tires?

[Buzz]

A couple thousand km is not too bad with track use all things considering Sparx, before you notice some sidewall wear with most tracks. *I missed the part about being worn out*. Seems a little fast for that to happen, although I have seen people destroy tires on a single trip with other track styles (moveable tire guide tips) in the wrong conditions.
What tire model and tire size are you using with your escargo all-steel track? I know that actual tire width will play a role in how the sidewalls rub on the guides. Also, make sure your belting edges are beveled back on the tire sidewall area. Belting should sit back from the actual track guides.
I’m not too picky on tires so long as the grouser that you make fits the tire well. Mud lites are good and a reasonable value usually. Most tires will have a best-traction direction. This can work as an advatage with tracks because the traction-mode can be used on the front tire, while the non-traction mode can be used on following axles (99% of your driving will be in the forward direction). If you slide a grouser over the tire tread, often times it will slide much easier one direction than the other. One direction will tend to hang up momentarily in the voids of the tire lug (at the peak of the chevron for example) while the other direction it will not. Most tires can slip easier in one direction than the other if you choose to leave middle tires driving (no track tuners). Track grouser width and shape can also affect how smoothly the tire treads can slip. Narrower grousers and especially square-edged grousers are harder to slip on, while wider, rounded(routered) grousers are beadier to slip on (UHMW).
Tire sidewalls always wear faster than treads when tracks are used, but elevated-belt tracks are much easier on your sidewalls, especially if you do a lot of sidehilling, carry heavy loads, or need to drive through ruts, rocks, and/or tussocks

[Buzz]

I’ll start by apologizing for hijacking the thread a bit, but you’ll see why.

[QUOTE=onlyonce;237716]I was curious myself and just looked on the Beaver dam website.They do provide quite a bit of info on their tracks.[/QUOTE

True, but everyone’s website or dealer description always looks and sounds fantastic. I always ask, “compared to what” after I read them most times. Many are conveniently vague and usually don’t answer this “compared to what” question.
This is why I want to know what type of plastic Beaver Dam Argo tracks use (or anyone for that matter). One fellow had steel plate bolted on either side of a couple grousers (to splint broken grousers). I included a pic of one of these broken beaver dam track grousers that I am curious about. I have seen broken tire guides countless times on Argo factory rubber tracks/torn factory rubber track hinges, broken Adair grousers/tire guides (w/sheared screws), broken beaver dam grousers, bent and broken steel bar channel grousers, and badly bent (but not broken) Escargo steel grousers.
I have yet to see anyone break a proper monolithic-style uhmw grousers, I think simply because there are no thin spots that have been machined away and put back together and no windows/pockets machined into the grouser that leave less material to bolt through. Thick (1-1/2”), solid UHMW in all directions, full thickness through bolts. After all you are only as strong/dependable as your weakest link. Many folks and many conditions might not require this level of durability. Nothing is perfect mind you, and I always say, “any track is better than no track in many conditions.”. It’s the other conditions where comparisons become more important.
These Pics are of a beaver dam hybrid track in Alaska. Not trying to be mean, just honest.
Again, Apologies for hijacking. And can I just say the auto-correct spelling is horrible in the posting window��

[mightymaxIV]

Buzz, I truly appreciate your input, but I would really like to see some pictures of what you consider an optimal design. I am always ready to try something better if it works better. Pictures please?

[Buzz]

We can agree that the most optimal design depends on what conditions you are faced with and what you need your machine to do. One particular track may work great for one person while the next person needs something completely different. It’s not appropriate for me to be posting pictures of what I build as “optimal” for everyone. I will only say that a few things really do matter in conditions like we have in Alaska:
*Smallest contact patch (shape) grouser with extra wide belts lifted off ground
*full tire width clean out between belts
*Fixed position guides that cannot move
*Heavy duty overlap joint (Easy install design)
*Full thickness through-bolts
*Super tough materials

Many people have built versions like this before with narrower belt widths, grouser thicknesses, screws vs bolts, traction add-ons, etc.

It is very labor intensive. To do it correctly, even moreso.

Other track designs may be totally sufficient for many folks, and that’s great. Once in awhile I can’t help but share information that track builders won’t necessarily tell you (or may not be aware even happened) with their products in Alaska.
Any track is better than no track, and many people’s experience is limited to what they read.

[onlyonce]

I am one of those people who's very limited knowledge about tracks is from what I have read on this site and what I have seen fellow members use. But I am very interested and willing to learn what I can from those with real world experience.

When you mention tire width plays a real role in wear are you referring to the side to side slop or clearance on either side of the tire width in the cutout of the grouser? If so I assume you want just enough clearance, but not so much that the tire is slamming side to side violently against the grousers.

I also don't quite understand having the smallest contact patch (shape) for the grouser. Is it your understanding that the cutting edge of the grouser should be radiused like the Escargo and not flatter for most of the way across like you see on other makes?

Thanks

[john swenson]

i don't have the knowledge regarding tracks like buzz has , but i have sure had alot of fun building , testing , and re- designing tracks . i'm doing some mods on my half tracks now for the max .. j.b.

[Buzz]

I am one of those people who's very limited knowledge about tracks is from what I have read on this site and what I have seen fellow members use. But I am very interested and willing to learn what I can from those with real world experience.

When you mention tire width plays a real role in wear are you referring to the side to side slop or clearance on either side of the tire width in the cutout of the grouser? If so I assume you want just enough clearance, but not so much that the tire is slamming side to side violently against the grousers.

I also don't quite understand having the smallest contact patch (shape) for the grouser. Is it your understanding that the cutting edge of the grouser should be radiused like the Escargo and not flatter for most of the way across like you see on other makes?

Thanks

Tire wear can happen more quicky if the tire has to sqeeze into the grouser. On the other hand, being too loose makes the track move too far when the machine skid turns, the main concern being the outside track moving too close to the body during a turn. It can happen with any track, and it’s another reason I never have grouser body extend right up to or past the rubber edge. I also use an overlap style hinge instead of a metal one with a pin (the vertical through-bolts also do not extend to the belt edge). Most of this is a non-issue as long as the track grouser fits the tire properly. I have seen pictures of grousers that were cut/tracks built for a machine with 14” wide Vendettas where there was way too much slop in the grouser. No doubt the grousers were made 2” wider than an Argo (12”), but the Vendetta actually fits a 13” wide grouser perfecty for example.
Regarding contact patch on the ground, you are correct, smallest on the ground is best. It makes the track most resistant to tire guide manipulation from rocks, ruts, tussocks etc. It also makes skid turning much easier, not to mention the belt edge lifted off the ground. It’s not about having a narrow track (remember any track is better than no track), it is about having a wide track with a narrow contact patch until you sink and actually engage the belts and vertical surface area of the belts.

[Buzz]

i don't have the knowledge regarding tracks like buzz has , but i have sure had alot of fun building , testing , and re- designing tracks . i'm doing some mods on my half tracks now for the max .. j.b.

That’s why I enjoy reading your posts so much j.b. I appreciate you always being so friendly and neutral and sharing your experiences and projects. I can tell you’re a stand up guy. There is no better way to figure things out than just jumping in and getting after it, and I look forward to hearing about your mods. It almost always turns out good or at least you’ll know what to change if it doesn’t. I learned a long time ago that all the best ideas in the world don’t matter until you test them and prove it. Some of my best ideas made 0% difference, but I learned a lot, and it’s always fun��