Hydraulic Press Jig for Grousers

[Bennett20200]

For those of you who have made your own metal channel tracks before, using a jig on a hydraulic press to replicate each grouser perfectly sounds more appealing than attempting to bend each one individually on a bender. So my question to those of you who have made tracks before me is:

When making a jig, do I need to slightly overcompensate my bends to account for "rebound" of the c-channel, or is rebound not really an issue? I would be loath to spend a few hundred dollars making up a jig for the press, only to discover that the c-channel didn't quite keep the shape of the jig once removed.

I'm new to making jigs for presses, so if anyone has any words of wisdom to that end that they would like to pass along, I'm all ears. If anyone has any photos of their jigs, I'd love to see those too (or purchase them, if their for 22" tires). I'm still open to the idea of manually bending the grousers on a bender, it's just that I've found my bends and angles haven't been consistent enough for me to be happy with, plus using a press opens up the possibility of being able to replicate the tracks for friends and local Argo'ers for just the cost of materials.

[john swenson]

hey bennett ... the first set of tracks i made i fabricated a simple jig that went in the trailer receiver on my truck , then manually bent the cut pieces for the grouser . but mine were'nt real fancy . if it's a few hundred dollars for a jig it must be pretty quality . plus your bending c channel , mine were flatbar with welded angle on top . i guess it's just how much you want to spend . check out the homebuilt tracked russian machines on u tube . they make some nice homebuilt tracks that look not too hard to fabricate . looking forward to seeing your finished tracks . johnboy va.

[john swenson]

also ..are you going to bend the grousers to the exact contour of the tire ? jb

[Bennett20200]

Hi johnboy, I'm making an elevated belt track, so the grousers will be bent to match the sidewall of my tire. The bottom of the grousers will more or less remain flat, then they will raise up and around the sidewall. I plan on using my front tire to get my dimensions from, as it takes the most weight and is also the "flattest" tire. The further back you go on the machine, the more "round" the tires get. The tires probably weren't a great choice for channel tracks, but I've seen a few other rigs running them (the cheapo duro hf243's) so I don't suspect it will be an issue. I think I'll go with a 3' rise.

The reason for the high cost of the jig just comes down to the crazy cost of steel right now. For 1/2 steel, the cost is currently $150 CAD a square foot + a $70 cost to cut it if you're purchasing less than a 4x8 sheet. I figure I'll need a few feet of it to make my jig (1.5 inch channel, so 3 identical 1/2 sheets welded together for the top, 2 for the bottom between the webbing). That will be a few hundred dollars worth of steel, plus another 100-200 for the cap to fit onto the 20T press. I don't mind paying that if I end up with a jig I can use to replicate the grousers as there are a few machines I would like to make tracks for. My concern is that if I cut out my stamp mold to be the exact final shape that I want my grouser to be, the c channel may take that shape when pressure is applied, but then "bounce back" a bit when I take the pressure off, like it does when I bend it with the manual bender.

[john swenson]

yes buddy...if you plan on making more grousers , it's worth having a good jig . but they will only work on tires like yours and that size , right ? i know what your saying about the metal not staying the exact shape after pressed . you may want to talk to someone who works with stamping metal to get some good input about how that is dealt with . i know that usually happens bending cold metal ..maybe it has to be heated first , then bent and then held in place till it cools . i don't know much about the process . be ashamed to make a jig and the grousers come out too small . let us know , jboy

[spacerockshunter]

Hi Benneth, which press model do you have? What is the thickness of metal you are planning. Material metal or Aluminum, perhaps Titan or stainless steel?
Cold stamp is better idea than preheat. The press mold will be quite expensive thing, worth if you plan to do those a lot.
Or you planning to go with CNC press brakes?

[Bennett20200]

Sorry Spacerockshunter, I was away for a few weeks there and couldn't get online to check the forms. The press is an electric 20T.. I can't remember the exact model, but I can find it pretty quickly if you'd like to know. The material of the tracks is c-channel, the material of the jigs would be 1/2 steel. I've more or less decided at this point that because I have no idea how much the mold will "spring back" that for now at least, I'll just bend each grouser manually. It will be a pain to do ~90 or so of them the exact same on the Hossfled #2, but at this point I think I've entered into "Analysis Paralysis" mode, and its time to just move ahead so that I have my tracks finished in time for the thaw. I may revisit this in the future though, once time is less of an issue.

[Ruffus]

If you know a machinist with a vertical mill handy, it would be pretty easy to make out of a length of flat stock lets say 3" by 3/8 thick. Flat stock thickness would mostly be dictated by "C" channel dimension. You machine the flat stock to the shape you want & sandwich them together like plywood for the male & female sections. Once they're done weld each assembly to another section of flat stock as a base, but longer than the assembly sections so you can have heavy duty guide pins on each side.

[john swenson]

that sounds like a pretty good approach ruffus .. i believe with a little creativity , you could also make a jig that could be mounted on a log splitter to bend your shapes . i made a jig for pushing stuck bearings on axles with the log splitter , worked great . j.b.

[Ruffus]

Never thought of using a log splitter. That's a great idea.

[Buzz]

just fyi, with heavy use, the 1.5” bar channel grousers will begin suffering damage. 1” would be even worse. The best thing you can do is space them 4” or less to strengthen this flaw (3” would be better), but then your track starts to become very heavy. They also give up quite a bit of performance in comparison to grousers that have much more vertical surface area. They are a great budget track, but most of my customers have upgraded their grousers to the HD UV stabilized UHMW grousers (they are interchangeable on my tracks to help with upgrade costs). Also, unlike rounded edge, slippery UHMW, the square edges on the steel bar channel should not be run w/o track tuners. FYI, you can get around any middle tire slip-load on steel bar channel grousers by simply wrapping only (2) tires inside the track. Whether it?s front, middle, or rear half tracks, or even Quad (4) half tracks, the track grousers will centipede around the tires to perfectly match the tread speeds. So if you want to run steel bar channel grousers, just consider this. We no longer do it, but for me it?s a performance, bouyancy, and durability shortcoming. For the right shaped press dies (which is what I use), 20T is a bit weak. Also make sure each straight stick is cut to the perfect length (consistently with a jig stop) based on your grouser design and tire, mark the centerline of both your bar channel piece as well as your dies, and make sure all steel pieces are deburred and lubricated. And make sure your holes are punched before you bend. You will occasionally have to clean up rough spots in your dies with a flap disc to keep everything operating smoothly. I have made 10s of thousands probably of these grousers, but there are only a few applications where I will even bother because of what I mentioned previously. Time is a valuable resource, and grouser replacement sucks, especially when performance is a compromise. Adding tons of extra grousers defeats the cost savings pretty quick too. Once in awhile, a low profile bar channel grouser can be used when nothing else can (short of buying all new, smaller tires). But even then, I?m discouraged to do it anymore. Hard testing over time both myself and customers led me to giving you this advice/ Jeff ?ak buzz?

[Bennett20200]

Hi Buzz, thanks for the input. I'm not too worried about destroying the channel grousers due to heavy use, the machine I'm putting the tracks on is an older 88' Magnum and as much as I'd love to think it's the ultimate invincible machine, I know that it's aged and the combination of smaller axles and only 1 bearing extension (front axles only) means that I can't go hard on it like I could a newer machine. I'm speaking to another member now about picking up a set of used track tuners, so if they're in the budget at all I'll toss them on too. I'm glad to have the old high torque GU transmission here. I actually might pick up a second one if I can find it, just to have on hand. I have thought about half tracks, I'm considering adding an additional hinge in the middle of the track to make that a possibility while running in the spring time. In your experience, does running half tracks on the middle 2 tires increase the stress on them (especially the 1st middle tire) like it does the first tire when running full tracks? I'm wary to run them without a bearing extension on the first loaded tire. On that note, I think I remember reading a thread a few years back about someone designing bearing extensions for the older Argos? It's something I might look into at a later date. I mean hey, why pay retail price for something when I could make it myself for only double the cost + time? A bad habit of mine, but something I enjoy. When you mention spacing the grousers at 4", is that center to center or 4" of clear space in-between? I'm almost ready to start assembling the tracks, just waiting on a few lengths of back ordered channel to finish the last few bends. I took your advice earlier on on the belt sizing, I got a 9 inch belt cut down into a 4 and 5 inch strip and I think it should be ideal. I appreciate your input on this, I know you've made lots of these over the years.

For anyone who checks in on this thread for the original question (about the hydraulic jig) I've ultimately decided to make the grousers by bending by hand. I liked the thought of the jig due to the precise and consistent bends it could produce, but I found that ultimately I was spent more time thinking and worrying over making the jig then I would have if I just bent the tracks by hand. It's still an interesting thought, and there was lots of helpful comments to that end, but for now I'm just bending my grousers by hand. I'm most of the way through bending my grousers already and its only taken a few hours of work. It's taking maybe 3 mins per grouser including all set up time and cutting, much less than I expected. Although it did take quite a few attempts to get it right, once you've got your angles and distances sorted, I found the hand bending to be more precise and replicable than I would have guessed. I'll have just over 100 grousers when I'm done, so I should have a few spares.

[Buzz]

4” center to center max if using steel bar channel.

By the way, 6x6world spelling autocorrect sucks. And someone needs to increase the auto logout time to more than (1) min. Give me a break. People actually want info to help them and that must be thumb-typed

[john swenson]

my original half tracks i made i , i just used 1'' wide flatbar ( 3/16 '' thick ) for the grousers . not alot of grabbing area in mud , but they performed amazingly well . i think the tracks provided good footprints in the mud and the tire treads still did the grabbing . theres a video under johnboys half tracked max . have fun ....look forward to seeing your finished tracks . jboy

[Bennett20200]

It's been quite a while since I've updated on my progress here, life got in the way a bit and so did the spring hunting season. Last time I checked in on the site to post some progress, I actually thought they site had been decommissioned, so I'm glad that turned out not to be true!

Anyways, I more or less completed my tracks a while ago.. just in time for all the spring mud to be cleared up already. Oh well, I'll get lots of use out of them this winter and next spring I'm sure. I may try placing paddles on them and testing them out for duck hunting the marshes this fall, but we'll see. I *think* I have attached some photos below that show the mostly finished tracks. I did end up bending each grouser by hand, it took a while and there were a few that didn't make the cut, but overall I'm quite happy with the finished product. My only real mistake I think was that I made the bends a tad too steep, and as a result the tracks come too far up the sides of the tires and can, under the right circumstances, touch the front bearing extension. That was a design flaw on my part, I was worried that if I made the grousers too "shallow" that they may fall off the tire. However, they wrap much deeper than I anticipated when I was choosing the depth (and having only 22 inch tires doesn't help) so I've lost a bit of flotation there in addition to them sometimes touching the extension on the inside. Overall though, its not a big deal. I just need to reverse the bolts on the inside of the tracks to gain a bit of clearance that way, and then I'll form some UHMW sliders over the axle extensions to protect them if the inside of the track still manages to touch. If I have to replace them every few years, that's no big deal.

Thanks a lot to those of you who helped out with the tracks, especially Buzz & John, the information was invaluable and saved me a lot of time and money fooling around with different concepts. I hope to have an update in 6 months confirming the performance of the tracks in the snow and mud.