Track Tuners ?

[Noel Woods]

Per Tim's earlier quote regarding the driven wheels:

"It will work in areas where there is not much lubrication or heavy loads, but will frequently fail throughout a typical days ride.... Fail meaning simply start uncontrollably slipping the remaining driven wheel or wheels inside of the track so that the machine essentially goes nowhere."

I once sheared an axle pin on a machine which took me down to one wheel driving an Adair tracked machine. I was far back in a swamp with two other machines without tracks. Yes, I noticed the one side wasn't pulling as well as the other, but I managed to keep going until I found a side trail out and in fact towed the other machines out of several obstacles. It would be a much simpler machine to have one driven wheel per side. I just wonder if a machine with one powered tire per side operating with a track system with maybe an automatic track tensioner might be the ticket.

Simple in design, cost effective, etc. Maybe not quite as capable as a machine with all driven wheels, but probably good enough.

[plott hound]

thanks buzz,when the snow returns I will give the tracks a good work out with and without the tuners.plowing snow should tell me how bad the slippage will be.

[Buzz]

sorry plott, but the problem is the doggone rubber tracks. Crap. Smooth on the inside with very little for the tire lugs to grab ahold of (side load). Newer style tires do a little better job of grabbing the bottom of the tire-guides on the outer edge of the tires. Still not very good though. Rawhide III's suck even worse if you get anything slippery inside your track and attempt heavier-load maneuvers especially from a standstill. Water that freezes in the winter is the worst. Open grouser tracks on the other hand allow the tire lugs to fall between grousers and side-load the grouser faces. The grouser centers on elevated-belt tracks actually move and can especially "find their home" between tire lugs. That's the key, using the tire lugs to sideload and drive the grouser-faces. When rubber tracks slip/grab, slip/grab it makes an awful noise as the chains load/unload repeatedly. Same thing happens with rubber tracks even if you drive the center tires, but the benefit of the tuners is definitely worth keeping them on.

[plott hound]

installed my adair tuners and spacers on my HDI today,put the argo rubber tracks on and went for a ride before snow melts.the adair spacers are sure a lot easier to install then the argo spacers.anyhow,went up through the bush roads and through a ditch back up onto main road and felt the tires slipping in the tracks.tracks and tires were well lubricated with water so im sure that is a factor.has anyone else experienced this?im a little concerned about the tires slipping in a big slush hole on the lake,might be better off having all wheels driving in the tracks??????????? tracks are installed without the space and are a little on the tight side right now.

cheers

[Obsessed]

Hey Obsessed or anyone with track tuner experience...

1) If all of your wheels were the same circumference would track tuners be necessary?

2) Wouldn't it make sense to install 6 tuners (on an 8x8) and drive the track from either the front or back wheels?

Hey North...good questions.

No...if your tires were all exactly the same and would consistently stay the same then there wouldn't be much benefit from track tuners...problem is that modern ATV tire manufacturing processes result in surprisingly random size tires and current AATV manufactures haven't made much of an effort to try and pair up common sized tires so most machines running around today already have a pretty mismatched set on them. Some dealers will go through great lengths to put matched sets on the machines they sell, but most dealers don't have the depth of inventory to effectively be able to do this. In my opinion, late model argo's benefit from slightly mismatched front and back tires (because of current chain tensioners), and larger ones in the center will actually help a skid steer machine turn much easier, but caution should be taken with these setups to eliminate the distructive effects of the resulting chain windup.

Perfect sized tires would work in a factory type of track, but a classic style of track will always benefit from the track tuners because those gear reduction types of tracks naturally end up severally overdriving all the center tires...generally to the tune of about 25% faster than the track is actually moving.

In a perfect world yes... Eliminating all of the driven wheels and there chains and sprockets and tensioners from a track system except for one would make sense except most common track options for these machines rely on friction to drive there track and there simply isn't enough friction all of the time necessary if you don't keep both the front and rear tire working. It will work in areas where there is not much lubrication or heavy loads, but will frequently fail throughout a typical days ride.... Fail meaning simply start uncontrollably slipping the remaining driven wheel or wheels inside of the track so that the machine essentially goes nowhere.

Best of luck and I hope this helps explain your questions.

Tim

[jacobsrf]

Tuners

I run escargo tracks with tuners no problems after 50 mile moose trip I carry a spare spacer in case one goes bad. The units look like they are well built. I have not had any chain problems.

[Rock Doctor]

Hey Obsessed or anyone with track tuner experience...

1) If all of your wheels were the same circumference would track tuners be necessary?

2) Wouldn't it make sense to install 6 tuners (on an 8x8) and drive the track from either the front or back wheels?

I've run with and without Tuners, I've also tried a couple other options. Sometimes by choice, sometimes not.
Tuners on middle axles works great.
Removing the front chains and no Tuners, is workable, but not really very good.
Broken back chains is about the same as removing front chains.
Broken third chains is tough to get through much, but u might be able to limp back to your truck.

RD

[JohnF]

I don't have track tuner experience but:

1) It is near impossible to get 8 tires that are statically the same diameter and even harder to get 8 tires that stay dynamically the same diameter. (temperature, pressure, rolling over logs, etc) But you are right.

2) When travelling on a slope all of the track slack ends up on the uphill end. (The mass of the vehicle pushes on the downhill end.) This will unload the uphill tire and if it happens to be the driven tire it will just spin in the tracks. Been there. Especially bad if there is snow and ice involved.

[NorthOf60]

Hey Obsessed or anyone with track tuner experience...

1) If all of your wheels were the same circumference would track tuners be necessary?

2) Wouldn't it make sense to install 6 tuners (on an 8x8) and drive the track from either the front or back wheels?

[Abalon]

Buzz, thanks for the reply. I just purchased the tuners I believe that they are the 2.5 inch. They look well built. Yes the axles are the hd axles. I am running the Argo rubber tracks. The area I was in when the axle broke was high dry swamp grass. My theory is that the grass increased the friction on the tracks which increased the stress on the axle. It could also have been a previously damaged axle. I'm not giving up on the tuners just yet.

[dirtbee]

my question I'm new to 6x6 world I picked up argo 1989, 18mag. how deep of snow will the argo go into without trac's or do I really need trac's for the snow,
is there anyone in mi. with argo ,max, machine where do you run them, this over 50 inches on orv trail, is wrong,

[Buzz]

Your HDI will have the heavier-flanged axles. But nothing is immune to failure. After all the flange is "welded" onto the axle. The flange can take far more abuse than the older 2-piece flange (which would bend easier and/or separate). But welds can break and not every axle will be guaranteed perfect from the factory. If you're making a high-load high friction turn (which will be amplified a bit with a heavy load), you're at the mercy of physics I guess. If your machine is struggling to turn because of the track's resistance and load in the machine, the driven-side (namely the corner axles and even mores...the front axles) are under a very high stress. Different track styles will turn easier on certain terrain- just another factor.
As for the track-tuners, I personally don't think your corner axles experience additional load when the tuners are installed. Instead, they experience the same load but you gain the added benefit of not having to "overdrive" or "slip" the center tires....Prior.....to the front/rear chains even starting to transfer power to the corner axles. Furthermore, the tiny contact patch of the center tires just doesn't help to move the vehicle forward (within the track). The track drives only when the front/rear chains make the corner axles move. Center tires that are "driven" (no tuners installed)....will only help in theory when when they are weighted-down on the bottom of the track...more or less on flat ground..which is usually a low-load condition anyway. Frequently, there is "daylight" under the center tires because of track-sag as you drive over or span obstacles, or climb steep terrain. Even so, their contact patch isn't going to change or really even help the huge "end-wrap" contact patch of the corner tires.
My opinion- your corner axles are going to feel/experience the load either way, and they're going to drive the track irregardless of what the centers are doing. But if you do not install tuners, then the other chains/bearings/axles and frame "within" the machine will experience additional load/stress. And, your fuel mileage, engine load/temps, and even tires suffer more wear.
Shoot, I've even heard of "center" avenger axles breaking simply from leverage and heavy loads.
Sorry to hear about your troubles out on the trail though, and please give more information about your wheel spacer and tuner width, track type, and maybe even a picture of your machine (they're always fun to see). Hopefully we can help some more!
FYI-There are lots of machines up here using tuners w/o problems. Especially the newer-style tuners which seem to be stronger with a spindle/backer-plate that can tolerate heavier loads.

[Old Tucker]

Tim, I recently purchased my track tuners and installed them on my 2011 hdi. I just got back from 10 day moose hunting in northern Alberta. I broke my front left axle right at the flange when I was making a left turn about 3 miles into my hunt. I had a pretty good load on at the time. Is there more stress on the front and rear axles when running the tuners? I took the tuners off and never had another problem. Any thoughts?

Randy

On your HDI, are the flanges a two piece flange or are they one solid plate like the HD axes? If they are the two piece then that is where the problem lies. The two piece flange is weak and will brake off. I have had two brake on me. I am running the track tuners and would not go without them, with the chanel track and my tires. There is no slippage between tire and track.
My axles broke when I was using the ARGO 18 in plastic track. If you do have the HD axles then my theory is out to lunch.

[Abalon]

Tim, I recently purchased my track tuners and installed them on my 2011 hdi. I just got back from 10 day moose hunting in northern Alberta. I broke my front left axle right at the flange when I was making a left turn about 3 miles into my hunt. I had a pretty good load on at the time. Is there more stress on the front and rear axles when running the tuners? I took the tuners off and never had another problem. Any thoughts?

Randy

[rockrewls]

Good to hear, these are essential for tracked machines IMO!!

Rock