High speed clutch kit?

[Surfer Dude]

So correct me if i'm wrong.... I have a late '97- early '98 Max II...(serial number 13403) I believe my machine would have a comet 780 clutch correct? and After '98 didnt they come out with a new primary clutch spring kit to help the primary backshift better and achieve a better top speed at the same time? does anyone have any information on this? Color of springs etc. The reason I am asking is my machine has a 18HP vanguard motor and the machine will barely climb hills. As if the clutch never backshifts, by the time I get to the top of the hill the machine is just creeping like it's stuck in high gear. I know what you all are thinking. condition of belt, tension, holding sticks forward blah blah blah. Well the tension is good, the belt is a brand new factory belt, and even though i don't have springs on the sticks I am definetely putting enough pressure on sticks. No doubt in my mind. Also the top speed of my machine is a mere 22 MPH on paved road on a good day which I would think is slow. So I would like to install this so called "high speed clutch kit" and a red driven spring to aid me in climbing steep hills I know these machines should have no trouble with. Only thing I havent done is watch the clutches when i'm going up these hills..... But to be honest I wouldn't 100% know what I was looking for anyways. So if anyone could help i'd highly appreciate it. One day i'll return the favor.... One day.... with cold beer possibly

[hydromike]

A change in the clutch spring or trying to get a "high speed clutch" is a Band-Aid fix. There's definitely something else wrong with your clutches. I won't "blah-blah-blah" you to death, but if you have a new belt and the tension is correct, there's definitely something up with either the drive clutch or the driven. When was the last time you had the clutches apart for maintenance?

I'd pull both the drive and driven clutches off and open them up. It's really a pretty easy task. Springs get tired, springs get broken, the bushings in the rollers on the drive clutch get worn. Take apart the driven clutch and clean the whole internal assembly (main shaft, bushing, both sheaves, the helix) replace the plastic cam sliders if necessary and put the whole thing back together and lube it well with dry graphite. Keep any other lubricant miles away from it....

You can do a quick and dirty inspection of the driven clutch without pulling it off. Remove the belt and push the outer sheave in by hand. If it goes too hard, I won't tell you to start the engine and give it a quick blip of the throttle, because that's crazy dangerous and is something I'd do. After it's open, you can pull each arm back a little further off the spider with a screwdriver and roll the bushings by hand to see if they have much slop. The Comets/Salsburys seem to run for decades with a ton of slop, but that doesn't mean it's good for them, and they will eventually throw a roller.

During your 22mph test, can you see if the belt is coming to the top of the drive clutch? It should be waaaaay up to the tippy-tippy top of the sheaves when they're compressed. You can also look to see how far the shiny/polished area on your drive clutch extends. If it's only half way, there's something that's limiting the clutch from engaging all the way. You can rev the engine with the machine in neutral to see how far up the belt comes too, but you really want to be testing it under load.

[Toys4Me]

I has having a similar issue last weekend in busco and the issue was my secondary. My secondary would only open about half way.

[thebuggyman1]

One more possibility comes to mind.....bad motor mounts. The rubber mounts can go bad, and if they do they let the center to center distance on the clutches decrease too much too easily. This causes the same issues as a loose belt.

[LarryW]

You can get a black marker and draw a line in the drive clutch straight from edge of drive down towards the crank. Run it and see how much wears off to make sure the belt is going all the way through its cycle.

[Surfer Dude]

Thank you everyone for the responses. I am just finishing getting one of my T-20's back together so I will have the driven clutch out of the machine anyways when I swap the t-20 out of the machine for this rebuilt one. I agree that parts do get worn out and there is definitely something wrong with one of the two clutches if not both. So I am going to try the marker on the sheaves trick (thanks and good idea LarryW) but i think I am going to have to take apart both clutches and clean them up.

Here is my next set of questions. Motor mounts are almost 20 years old at this point. where would even be a good place to get replacements? Factory still use this style? same thing with the clutches. Where can I even get the plastic cam sliders and such? or any other clutch rebuild parts for that matter?

Next question, How do you remove the drive clutch off the motor easily? Any way to do in the machine? It does not look possible at all.

Final question, you guys thinks while I have the clutches apart I should just do the spring and weights upgrade in the primary? From what I've read the stock primary clutch in my year never really utilized the entire clutch even when brand new and this "high-speed clutch kit" allowed the primary to open farther using the whole clutch and backshift better. That coupled with the red drive spring seems like It would pull like freight train. Seeing as my machine couldnt even pull my buddies quad out of the mud, which I just drove right through by the way hahahaha

[Toys4Me]

When you were trying to pull the quad out did you hear any belt squeal? That issue sounds more like bands needing adjustment.

[Surfer Dude]

When you were trying to pull the quad out did you hear any belt squeal? That issue sounds more like bands needing adjustment.

Nope no belt squeal. Could be band adjustment on that one or belt slipping without squeal. smelled belt burning a little bit though. Just dont think the primary grabbing hard enough maybe. I dont know? New tranny going in soon so I will know more then. Just want to address clutches while I have everything taken apart.

[hydromike]

Here is my next set of questions. Motor mounts are almost 20 years old at this point. where would even be a good place to get replacements?

McMaster-Carr

same thing with the clutches. Where can I even get the plastic cam sliders and such?

03-369 - Arctic Cat / Kawasaki Cam Linings | Snowmobile Parts | MFG Supply

Next question, How do you remove the drive clutch off the motor easily? Any way to do in the machine? It does not look possible at all.

You should be able to loosen the 3/8"-24 bolt that holds the clutch on the output shaft and the clutch should pull off. You don't have to pull the bolt out of the clutch if there's not enough room, just unbolt it from the engine and you can leave it in the clutch. There should be enough room in a Max II engine bay to pull the clutch off without loosening the engine from its mounts, but I'm not sure. Regardless, you can very easily loosen the engine mounts and slide the engine over a bit. If the clutch has been on there for 20 years, it might be a bit sticky on the keyway. It's not pressed on and there's no taper to the shaft. The only thing that holds it on after the retaining bolt is out, is friction.

Final question, you guys thinks while I have the clutches apart I should just do the spring and weights upgrade in the primary? From what I've read the stock primary clutch in my year never really utilized the entire clutch even when brand new

I've never heard this before, and it doesn't seem logical that the factory wouldn't use a clutch calibrated to use the full extent of its available ratio. I'm using a couple old (Lord knows how old.... "old...") 780 Salsbury/Comets on some heavy machines and they spin up just fine. I haven't done a single thing to them, save for a good cleaning and a half-hearted inspection here and there. I'm really starting to wonder if you've got a couple broken springs in your primary, or if your secondary is reeeeeally binding on you. The red spring will let you build more engine speed at a lower vehicle speed which gives you more horsepower to work with down-low. You could always throw one in while you have things apart, but remember that it's a lot like a cortisone shot on a bad joint. It'll feel better, the but root problem persists unless we find out what else is wrong.

[Surfer Dude]

Mike, Thank you very much for your responses. I am going to try and find the thread where someone states about an "update" so to speak on the clutch. I don't think I was dreaming it

I am also going to order the vibration dampner/motor mounts through work today. Mine may not be horrible but the price is right through work and with them being old why not just start fresh. Thanks for the idea Buggyman. Think them same ones would also work on my dads old 2 stroke kawasaki 440 big max?

I also very much agree mike that there obviously must be a problem. Was just getting to the point of, If i'm going to have it apart to fix it I might as well upgrade it at the same time. Thanks again I will keep everyone informed as to what I find out and what problem with my clutches turns out to be.

[Surfer Dude]

[QUOTE=Surfer Dude;155630]Mike, Thank you very much for your responses. I am going to try and find the thread where someone states about an "update" so to speak on the clutch. I don't think I was dreaming it

http://www.6x6world.com/forums/transmissions/5527-clutch-problems.html

VIOLA I found it. In this message HEY_DAN mentions in the bottom of the post about this update kit because from the factory the clutches did not utilize the entire clutch. So that coupled with old worn out springs could be all my problem. It did cure the guys problem in that post originally. Same thing like you said hydromike. Probably all worn out springs and rollers which seem to come in this "kit" anyways.

I bet a good cleaning like you said mike would do wonders on the secondary alone. So don't think I am not listening to what you have to say because you've been very helpful but I would like more grunt as I do plow with this machine in the winter so thats where red spring will come in But could also use some more top speed for trail riding with 4 wheeler clowns.

Thank you again and I will update with what I come up with.

[hydromike]

Well... d*mn... I've never heard of that clutch issue before, but I won't dispute Dan... He was the parts man at RI for a time, so he's the one who'd know. It's still absolutely bizarre to me that they'd produce a machine that didn't use the entire clutch's potential.

It sounds like you could benefit from a stiffer secondary spring, so I'd go for it while you have it apart. It's a neat, and pretty noticeable difference in both the Swamp Fox and the 980. The red spring has no effect on top speed if everything is working correctly, it just changes how the secondary shifts. Good luck with it, and do post your results as you go through things.

[Surfer Dude]

Alright so after this long hard winter and a complete MAX II rebuild. I finally got the clutches all done and put some seat time in the machine. The "high speed clutch kit" does seem to do the trick, and coupled with the red clutch spring and new button inserts the machine works very well and climbs very well also. Something it never did before. Before upgrade the machine only hit 22mph once but usually ran about 17mph. Now it is a constant 25mph and seen 28 once. And of course I want more so will have to bump motor up now to get just a couple more.

But I did notice that when I had the primary apart there was quite a bit of pitting and imperfections on the shaft between the sheeves and seems to hold up the primary when It gets close to full shift. So eventually I will need to get a new primary but for now is working for me. Same with the secondary there was a lot of scoring on the slides that the buttons ride against. I cleaned up so of the bad ridges but it is not perfect. eventuall will replace both clutches seeing as previous owner did no maintanence it seems... But with cleaning up clutches and installing new parts it is working way better than it was thats for sure.

The primary High speed kit that I got came with all blue springs. Blue roller weights and blue cones on the weights. Which according to salisburys guide equals a 1500 clutch engagement. I'm assuming thats what all comets came with after 98' until they started using new clutches.

Only thing I am unsure of is that when running down edge of corn field as soon as I get to any wet spot or soft spot in the grass the machine almost downshifts too fast now. Engine rpms dont change but machine runs half the speed until it gets back out into the clear and then picks speed back up again. Anyone have any idea on this one. I don't want it to backshift that much. more spring pressure in the primary?

Well on to the next project. Upgrading the 18hp briggs. But I will start a new thread for it

thanks to everyone for there help. (especially hydromike)
Daniel