Primary Clutch Removal

[thorn]

I am trying to remove my primary clutch (engine) on my Conquest to check the weight of the weights and to put a shim in it (Rock Doc style).

I can't get it to budge after loosening the allen head on the shaft. I am hitting it with a rubber mallet while turning it, but of coarse I can't get much of a swing in the engine compartment.

I tried prying on it a bit, but I don't want to bend it and I sprayed some wd-40 where I could. The machine only has 120 hrs on it and I am surprised it is seized on. Any other tricks???

[rgoat]

As long a pry bar as you can find between clutch and engine block is the only trick I know. If you can find some brave volunteer to tap it with the rubber mallet while applying pressure with the pry bar that may help too. If you do get it off make sure you get some anti-sieze on the shaft before reassembling.

[thorn]

OK thanks and definetly putting anti-sieze on it!

[ARGOJIM]

You could carefully attempt to put heat (not a lot) on the main shaft (directly) of the clutch allowing to swell, you will probably want to remove the outer cover and the plastic coated weights first though. Course if you remove the weights in the machine there may be no need to remove the clutch other than stuck, most all conquests ran 260G weights.

The inner face will bend easy so be careful with the prybar to only hit the inner part of it.

[thorn]

Ok I got the top of the clutch off and the weights were the stock/sea level weights (260 grams). John F provided an old (1998) service bulletin from Argo on which weight to use for different altitudes in includes info for the 18 HP B&S engine in the Response and Bigfoot. Here is that bulletin:

I just ordered 225 gram as I operate mostly in the 9000-1000 feet above sea level area in deep snow turning 22" Chanel Tracks. It calls for 220 grams at 1000 feet.

The purpose of this is to get your RPMs up to the full 3600 RPM which gets you close to getting the full amount of horsepower available at your elevation. I was getting 3200-3300 RPM at WOT at around 8500 feet above sea level with the 260 grams, so this should get me to or close to the 3600 RPM.

[dale7637]

I hope it worked out better for you than it did me... I ended up having to remove the engine from my conquest to get the clutch off.. I put a puller and heat on it once the engine was out, and ended up removing the clutch in about 15 different pieces. I couldn't believe how seized onto the shaft it was.. unreal.

[ARGOJIM]

Thorn, what rpm is it running unloaded?

[thorn]

Thorn, what rpm is it running unloaded?

I don't know. When I am up in the hills my machine usually has anywhere from three people and a little bit of gear or three people, 3 dogs and a lot of gear. I would say though that on a rare occasion when it is just me and some gear I am always in deep snow and steep terrain, so I think the machine is always feeling loaded.

[thorn]

I put the 225 gram weights in and backed the secondary clutch spring off to the #2 position to try it (was in #1). I haven't been able to take it out, but I picked up a couple hundred RPM at WOT (parked). I also changed the tranny oil, lubed the bearings, which was not fun with the 22" Chanel tracks on. I was glad I put the 90 degree zeros on the HD bearings and axles I put on the front last year, they were a breeze. Bring on the snow!

[thorn]

Update: Took it out today for a shake down on a job (see thread in Argo section) and the 225 grams gave me another 200-300 rpm and made my turns less boggy going up hill. High range was more usable in some conditions that I would have shifted to low normally. My house is at 5300 feet above sea level and I would HIGHLY recommend going to these weights if you are that high or higher. I think I like the secondary in hole #2 now as well. I think I have this thing dialed in for my conditions as best as it can be and it is running great. I may do a 27 HP engine swap in it down the road though.

[JohnF]

Hey Thorn. Been watching and waiting to see how it works out for you. Some observations:

I think Jim wanted to know what your WOT RPM is when in neutral. I imagine he is just wanting to make sure the engine is working properly before heading down the clutch tuning path because that can be a windy path.

You mentioned gaining WOT RPM parked after changing the weights and that doesn't sound right to me. you should pretty much be seeing at least 3600RPM no-load no matter the clutch tuning parameters. (The CVT doesn't have hardly any affect here; minimal.)

You gained 200-300 RPM while underway. That's my experience with that change too. What RPM does that represent? How close to 3600 are we at the elevation you want to operate in? I have some 200g and 175g weights I would love to try on your machine.

You may be happy with where you are so this next bit is just me rambling about what I believe is the ideal CVT functioning:
You are sitting at the bottom of the uphill route you visited yesterday. You hit the throttle wide open. The car begins to move at about 1300RPM and the engine, without lugging, goes smoothly to shift out RPM; not quite but near 3600RPM. You climb the hill and any change in power requirement is met with a change in gearing by the CVT but the engine RPM remains the same. So, when you demand power to make a turn the CVT should shift down but the engine shouldn't lug.

That's ideal. I know what you are dealing with. You may be at the point where you simply don't have the horsepower to operate in the ideal and accept the lugginess in turns or succumb to low gear. I know I did.

I think getting tracks that give you lower effective gearing was a move in the right direction. I look forward to more of your reports. I also think that given your description I would go back to hole 1 to see if the lugging in turns is because it isn't shifting down quick enough (my guess) or you are just out of horsepower (I think trying to turn in this condition would just stop the car).

[thorn]

As far as WOT in neutral before the change i would have to see if I made that notation somewhere. Now it is around 3400 rpm I think.

Going up the rather steep switch back yesterday I was able to stay in High range the enter time. Now I wasn't loaded super heavy and the snow wasn't very deep until I got towards the top (9100 feet above sea level), but I was in the 3000-3200 rpm. I was not always at WOT though as I was having to slow and maneuver frequently. I was able to open it up going down and hit 3600-3650 a couple of times.

I am sure I could go a bit lighter, but it was really running well and I especially seemed to have hit a sweet spot for High range. I may try the #1 hole in the secondary again someday for comparison, but I like the way it is running currently.

I would say any lugging I have now during turns (which is minimal) is just a lack of HP at elevation.