Flipping a clutch around for more body clearance?

[micmac]

I'm thinking of moving my Max IV T-20 to under the back seat and lowering the engine. I know that ATTEX had a "backward" clutch scenario for more body clearance. Richard Clark has done this mod. My specific question is on the driven clutch. Would the Helix or ramp part need to be on the opposite? Looking at my driven there is a extra slider on the other side of the Helix. I wonder if this is what it's designed for? Speaking with Don today he thought you would also need a reverse wound spring. Has anyone done this? Marc S maybe?




Mike

[thebuggyman1]

Sorry Mike, I just don't understand how this will work without a ccw turning motor. I know a lot of 2 strokes will run backwards, but what's the advantage? Maybe this is obvious to others, but I've never seen how a maxIV is set up. If you are just moving the trans from behind to in front of the engine, the orientation remains the same and the clutch will pull the same way. ?????

[micmac]

Buugyman,

The Drive clutch on the engine shouldn't matter as it operates off of centrifugal force. I'm thinking that the driven should work if the ramp was the opposite way from standard and most likely a reverse wound spring. If you think about the driven being run by a CW engine. It opens as it slides down the ramp "downhill" toward the back of the machine. When you turn the clutch around if you could keep the ramp orientated the same way I think it should work.

Here is a photo of what I'm attempting to do. I'm not sure it this application uses a different clutch or on modified for this case? If you look closely it appears the helix is on the opposite ramp from the normal setting.





On a standard Max IV the engine sits on an engine stand and is above the lower tub resulting in a high CG. By flipping the clutches I believe that allows the engine to be moved more to the center and you can lower the engine into the machine. I don't have enough clearance to mold the tub out to keep it in the stock width position. Also I want to keep the four place seating and not go with a mid engine design.

Mike

[thebuggyman1]

Sorry Mike, I envisioned you flipping the whole t-20 around (having the clutch on the right hand side).
Your current spring should work if you can secure the ends in place. I think the spring rate would not change, and there is not that much movement there. The challenge will be making some kind of strap or similar devise to secure the spring ends.

[LarryW]

I have never tried flipping the driven. From what I am thinking in my head, the ramp vs spring pressure has nothing to do with rotation. So it seems like it would not matter what way the driven is? I could be wrong but I dont see it. Also, some snowmobiles produced by ski-doo had reverse option that actually worked from the engine spinning backwards. Not sure what clutch system they are using but if you searched around and they are the same, I guess that would answer the question.

[Roger S]

Seems to me it needs a reversed spring to preload the ramps on the opposite sides. As it is now, it wouldn't open.. it couldn't open.

[number1cas]

The second set of plastic bumpers is most likely for your engine braking. I am an Argo guy so not familiar with your model, however most all 4 stroke sleds, Atv's and argo's use the 2ndary clutch to control downhill desents and the clutch rides up on the opposite side, thus the second set of plastic bumpers, if you run these clutches in reverse you be using the helix angle for downhill control (referred to as engine braking by most) for forward operation and will overrev big time as the helix angle is substantially steeper than the normal forward helix ramp.
I do not think that your existing clutch would work the way you want it to, but I could be wrong of course.

[jerseybigfoot]

I have used Polaris driven units to move the trans over, I think the belt center is 1 1/2" to 2" difference. The richard clark mod has the ramp on the other side and must use a reverse wound spring.

[LarryW]

IDK? Im thinking the clutch is pulling on the belt and opens the secondary up. I dont see how rotation would matter so much. The secondary seems like it would still open. I could be missing something. I admit it has happen before, once. lol One side needs to slip on the belt some for it to open. If it is reverse the other side would spin I think? Maybe? Now number1cas might have a point with engine breaking. Someone needs to try it!

I know the attex setup uses a centrifugal driven clutch with out the springs so maybe that is why?

Good idea with the polaris setup jersey!

[Roger S]

After more armchair scrutiny.. I said the clutch couldn't open.. now I think it would go flying open at the slightest load, if you just turned it around without changing to a reversed spring.

I assume those slider buttons are worn, they were all the same size then new?

[LarryW]

After more armchair scrutiny.. I said the clutch couldn't open.. now I think it would go flying open at the slightest load, if you just turned it around without changing to a reversed spring.

I assume those slider buttons are worn, they were all the same size then new?

Hey Roger, After reading your post, I just relized I bet money your right. The belt will grab the sliding face, spin it and slam it wide open. Guess I have been wrong twice now, lol.

[micmac]

Thanks Guys all good info. JBF does the polaris clutch require a sleeve to fit the T-20 shaft?
Larry I think Roger is right if you left everything alone I think the clutch would slam open at the slightest torque.

This is why I love this board, I never knew that the other side Helix was for engine braking. The ramp is steeper then the forward one so there would be a bit of a difference but how much on a trail machine? After playing with the unit with and without a spring, it would definitely require a reverse wound spring. After a search I found some are available there are some available. hmmmm

[Roger S]

The ramps are different? Number1cas gets a thumbs up for that tech note.

[thebuggyman1]

After reading number1cas's post, This thing has bugged the hell out of me! So, I went to the garage and took some pictures. pic#1 is a new 4 stroke driven, and you can see the unequal ramps. pic#2 is a 80's maxII 4 stroke, same type ramps. pic#s 3,4,5 show the hook on the end of the spring.
On the new driven I took apart for the pictures, the spring should work backwards by catching on the backside of the hooks. The ramps are still all wrong, but on my 2 stroke driven (1970 vintage sportster) the ramps appear much more equal. Maybe take 2 and make one????
Edit: "Thanks Guys all good info. JBF does the polaris clutch require a sleeve to fit the T-20 shaft?
Larry I think Roger is right if you left everything alone I think the clutch would slam open at the slightest torque. " You would have to pull it apart and preload the spring in the other direction.

[micmac]

So I'm thinking find a helix with equal forward and reverse ramps and get a reverse wound spring. as there aren't the additional catches on my clutch as with the newer one.