6x6 v 8x8

[Zig]

Hi, I am new to this blog. In 2007 I purchased a new loaded Argo Avenger with tracks. The machine was ideal for what I needed and for where I live. I could not believe the places in the deep snow it could take me. I live in the Beartooth Mountains in Wyoming and was at times putting on 40 miles a day on this machine. About the time I had put a hundred hrs. on this machine I started having lots of chain adjuster problems and bearing problems. It got to where I could not go 10 miles without breaking down. Would I have less chain problems with a 6x6? I would like to hear from individuals that have owned both new and could give me a good comparison. I am only hauling myself and my wife so I don’t think I need a large machine. Within a year of purchasing the Argo I sold it. Do you think I would have less problems with a 6x6?
Thanks Zig

[MAX IV Mark]

Take a look at this thread. I believe this was your problem along with a solution. It has to do with chain windup and the tracks.

http://www.6x6world.com/forums/tire-track-wheel-talk/23111-adair-track-tuner-testimonial.html

adairargosales - Track Tuners
MAX IV Mark

[Zig]

Tuners

Thanks for the info on the tuners. I don't think they had them in 2007 when I was having all my problems with my 8x8 avenger. For my needs I think I can get by with a 6x6 instead of an 8x8. Like I said it is just me an my wife so I think a 6x6 will work fine. Less chains and moving parts. I like the idea of only have four wheels driving my tracks and the 2 center tires being idlors. I want this machine mainly for the snow in the winter. In the summer I have four wheelers I run around my property with. Now I need to figure out wether I want to go with a Max or an Argo. Its not any fun having break downs when you are 20 to 30 miles from home. If anyone else is running tuners on thier machines I would like to hear back from them. Also, maybe I am putting to many miles on my machines. I know most people probably use these machines for part time recreation and don't put a lot of miles on them. In the winter I will put on 20 to 30 miles a day. Are these machines designed for that or am I expecting to much? How many miles can a person expect to put on these machines?
Thanks Zig

[AdrenalineJunky]

Tracks require finicky tire dimension measurement and placement to avoid excessive chain wind up. My avenger @ 100 hours still has chains and bearings in like new condition, but have never run tracks. My bigfoot has just under 100 hrs, and again it needs nothing and has been solid....I did run tracks on it for maybe 20 hours early on. Chain and bearing lube every 10 hours goes a long way to lengthen lifespan. I did have a max II before the argos. I prefer argo hands down.

[spookum]

For pure flotation in the winter time, and being able to climb banks, you cant beat the 8 wheeled argos. I too am curious, in a side by side comparison in the snow, is there any diffrence? I just know from watching you tube that the 8 wheelers do better than the 6 wheelers climbing out of mud holes. Watch you tube trail rides you will cetch my dirft.

Also, you will be delighted with the new HDI transmission in the newer argos. The technology has come a long ways.

But if your allways running tracks in the snow... a modified max can be rigged up to counter rotate tires... that may be kind of cool for you.

[Zig]

Trade for new yearly

I purchased my machine new with tracks on it and I was told at time of purchase that I could run the tracks even in the summer time. Now after owning one and running it until I wore it out I believe I shouldn’t have run it with the tracks on in the summer time. I understand the less pounds per sq. inch of pressure on the ground with the tracks will allow you to float on top of the snow and that is what I wanted. But it seems to me when you run the machine on dry ground with tracks on it and you also load it up with four to six people that you are also putting a lot more torque on chains and bearings when you are making tight turns verses running on just the tires. It’s my opinion and maybe I am wrong but I don’t think that the machine is designed tough enough to run with the tracks full time and that is what shortened the life of my machine.

I liked hunting from my machine in the winter and it is legal to take them off road on the National Forest if they have tracks on them (they then consider them a snow machine). Snow machines are worthless in the timber which makes these machines ideal for tracking through timbered areas. I paid over $20,000. for my machine, that is a lot of money for a machine that will only get me through one season. Which leads me to this question, could I get more hours of use out of a 6x6 with tracks before I need to replace it.

Maybe the answer for me would be to trade for a new machine every year?

[Rock Doctor]

I'd like to chime in here, but keep in mind that this is nothing more than my 2 bits worth;
I have run a number of different types of tracks on both 6x6 and 8x8 ARGOS (I've never run a Max, Hoot, Coot, Hustlers, ect)

In my opinion, ALL you trouble revolved around lack of knowledge and understanding (NOT your fault, I would blame the Dealer if I understand your posts correctly)
In my experience, TIRE DIAMETER/PRESSURE is extreemly, VERY important when running Rubber Tracks. There are 2 schools of thought on this.
1) Air up ALL tires to the same pressure.... lets say 5psig... Measure the circumferance of all tires. Put the 2 smallest on the front axles, the 2 largest on the second axles, the 2 second largest on the 3rd axles, and the second smallest on the back axles. This helps relieve Chain Windeup in 2 ways. It puts the closest matching tires into the drive positions (Front and Rear), and it puts the Wineup tension on the top of the chains instead of on the bottom (having the tension on the bottom, where your chain tensioners are located, puts extreme stress on the tensioners. Having the larger tires in the middle positions allows these tires to "Slip" easier inside the tracks without shocking the chains or tensioners too much.
2) Map your tires. This takes a little bit of time and patience. Pick the pressure you want to run. Air all your tires up to that pressure, and measure the circumferances. Take the average circumferance, and tweek your tire pressures up or down in each tire to make it equil in size to the Average. Make a note (Map) of what pressure each tire needs to have in it. Mount your tracks and air the tires according to your map. If your tracks are too tight, re-map the tires at a smaller circumferance. If the tracks are too loose, re-map the tires at a larger circumferance. It's a bit of a PITA, but once its done you should be good for a long time.

Now, with the introduction of the Track Tuners from Adair Argo, there is a simple 3rd option. Basically you will still want to match the Circumferance of the 4 corner tires, but the middle tire circumference becomes much less important as they will be "free-wheelin" in the tracks. The Track Tuners will completely elliminate any Chain Windup contributions from the middle tires.

Rubber tracks have a tremendous amount of traction (Inside and Outside). The friction between the tires and the tracks will create a lot of chain windup stress, which is transmitted to the bearings, chains, sprockets, axles, ect. The friction between the tracks and the ground creates a lot of "Traction", but this creates a lot of stress on Axles, bearings, chains, ect too. It also makes it hard to turn the machine, especially when it's loaded heavy.

I would like to toss the idea out there that you did not have "Chain Adjuster and Bearing Problems", you had "Chain Windup" problems, and in the summer the problem is compounded by having too much traction to the ground which translates to Turning Problems and High Stress on the whole drivetrain.

You can downgrade to a 6x6 if you choose, but if you are doing what I think you are doing, you might end up wishing you still had an 8x8. If you are like me, and are traveling 20-30 miles out in the winter time, you will/should have a good supply of "Safety Gear" on top of any other gear you might have with you. A 6x6 does not carry much in the way of cargo (relative to an 8x8). Argo's also don't like to pull sleys or trailers in the snow.

You mentioned wanting to hear from guys that have run Track Tuners........ I have, and would recommend them if you choose to stick with Rubber Tracks. Plastic Tracks are not as bad as rubber for chain windup, and the UHMW Constructed, Open Faced design of the Adair Tracks are even better. I stopped using the Tuners with my Adair Tracks as they were not needed at all (You still will want to keep an eye on your tire pressures, but chain windup is not much of an issue with the Adairs). Having said all that, it's also important to note that Plastic/UHMW Tracks do NOT havs as much traction on snow/ice as rubber tracks. (If plastic had good traction in snow/ice, we would not make ski's and toboggans out of it.)

You are not even coming close to "Putting too many miles" on these machines, you were just doing it in a way that was particularily hard on the machine......IMHO.
I don't know what an "Average" person puts on in a year, but for myself, I would guestamate that I put around 300-500 miles/yr on my Argo's.(Each time I go to my cabins, it's a minimum of 30 miles per trip)
Your machine was probably not "Worn Out", it just needed a little TLC. New slider Blocks on your Tensioners, New Chains and Bearings, and you probably would have been good to go.

If you have a pocket full of cash trying to burn a hole in your leg, you could trade in your machine every year, but I think that would be wildly inappropriate.

So, in Summary:
I would recommend you go with another 8x8, with Track Tuners, and Rubber Tracks (Keeping Summer operations to a minimum, or remove the tracks in the Summer). Pay attention to your Tire Pressures, and Maintenance Schedule. Your machine should last for many years.

Once again, this is only my 2 bits worth, based on experience gained in MY riding conditions

Hope this helps you out

RD

[foxvalley]

I have to agree with RD on pretty much everything he just said. I believe an argo is about as bullet proof of a machine as you can get,as long as you understand how it works,and on the flip side,why it's breaking. I wouldn't give up on an argo,just understand it more. This is a great site for that. Also, having had both the 6x6 and now the 8x8HDI,for what you are doing, I would recommend also, like RD to stick with the 8x8. More room, and a much smoother ride. The rubber tracks are great in winter,but I believe there are better all round tracks out there that are less harsh on the unit.

[Zig]

Thanks for your responses, sorry it takes me so long to respond but I am on the road until April and having trouble getting internet connections.
I should have also mention that one of my primary uses would be to track wolves. Like I said I owned an 8x8 but not a 6x6. I liked how I was able to get around with my 8x8 but I am still not convinced that I wouldn’t be better served with a 6x6. When both machines have tracks which one has the least amount of psi on the ground? And I would think that the 6x6 would get me through the thick woods that the wolves drag me through better than an 8x8 in tight places, but, how well will the 6x6 climb over downed timber compared to an 8x8?

I track these wolves sometimes back and forth across the Clarks Fork of the Yellowstone River. I found that by screwing sheet metal screws onto my tracks that when I break through the ice the machine would climb back out onto the ice a lot better. Will a 6x6 climb back out as well and as easily as the 8x8?

I understand that an 8x8 handles more cargo and more passengers than a 6x6 but I am not looking for a machine that hauls more. I do not need a mud bogger or swamp buggy, my only use would be with tracks in the winter hauling myself and one other person in steep mountains in deep snow.

I would like to here if there are any 6x6 owners with tracks out there that feel their machine will go the same places an 8x8 will go in our conditions. You can visit my web site and see where I live at www.cradallproperties.com, we live in the Beartooth Mountains.

Maybe I am wrong but I think if I run a 6x6 with tuners on the center hubs I would eliminate the problem of chain wind up all together. Also, if I am correct I believe I would be running less pounds psi on the snow which should be better.

Wasn’t the main reason for the development of the 8x8 to haul more passengers and gear over the 6x6? There has got to be + and –‘s of both, what are the +’s of the 6x6? Ones got to be that it is lighter.

[foxvalley]

compressed bigfoot.jpg

A 6x6 can and will go anywhere an 8x8 will go,with the right track setup.The only issue that I had with the 6x6 is that they will get high centered more often than a 8x8. I justed helped put these 18" tracks on a 6x6 bigfoot,and almost elliminated any high center issues. This setup should get you anywhere you want to go,including deep snow.