beware of fuel vent at rear of argo

[Grandsteph]

I'd like to hear if this has happened to others.

My 04 avenger spends its down time in heated garage. Currently, it's 20 or 30 degrees celcius below zero outside. I started my machine and parked it outside and let it sit for 30 minutes so the machine can get to outdoor temp (snow less likely to stick to body and wheels and form ice). After 30 minutes, started the machine no problem and let it idle for 10 minutes. After that I began my ride but machine stalled within 100 yards. Able to start it right away but only with choke. As soon as I took choke off, it stalled. This went on for 5 minutes then I just let it sit for 10 minutes. After 10 minutes, able to start it right away no problems. Just made it back home (about 100 yards) then stalled.

It took a lot of head scratching to solve this puzzle. Here's what we came up with:
In the last two weeks, I used me my argo a lot in the snow with tracks. Snow was blown in the fuel vent at the rear of the vehicle. When the vehicle went back in the heated garage after its run, the snow melted in the vent tube and collected in a low point of the tube. When I took the argo out of the garage and let it sit for 30 minutes in the deep freeze, the water in the vent tube froze. Because the gas tank was no longer venting, it created a vacuum and starved the engine of fuel. Back in the heated garage it went. The ice in the vent tube melted. Once I clued into this, I was then able to blow the water out of the tube and problem solved. There wasn't much water but the tube is small so it doesn't take much to obstruct.

Question: Why is it so important for the gas tank to be vented so far back and at that precise location? It seems likely that water, snow or debris will enter to venting orifice and obstruct the tube. The argo really stirs up alot of mud, water, or snow back their (especially with tracks). Unbelievably simple but you're going nowhere if your tank is not venting.

Solution: I will be redirecting the vent tube to a more protected location.

Keep this in mind fellas

[Bazooo guy]

The vent needs to be in an open air location.
If vented fuel vapours fill your tub it could go BOOM

[Grandsteph]

Are gas fumes heavier than air?

[hydromike]

Yes.....

[rapidroy]

I had a very eye opening experience one time as I needed to do some welding on the rear crossmember in my 8x8 I/C. I had just pulled the floor pans, cleaned the leaves and pine needles out of the bottom, sprayed lube on the chains and then stuck my head down in the back to strike an arc and then WUMP! It took me a second or two to realise what the $%#^& happened. After extinguishing the smoldering leaves I couldnt get to before spray lubing the chains, I picked up the can of lube and discovered the propellant was propane! So, leasson learned, things need to ventilate after lubing or use spray grease that uses an inert propellant before exposing a spark or flame. This applies to maybe spilling a little gas in the tub also... just sayin'. Maybe I'm the only one this has happened to, but it did come as quite a suprise. // RR

[DerekF]

Just a thought but I had the exact thing happen a couple of times while hunting in the winter. -20 to -30 cold. Warm it up and it would run, take it out, and it would stall shortly after that. I thought it was the vent tube so I tried running the machine with the gas cap off and to my surprise it still stalled. I poured gas in the carb and it ran perfect. Long story short, I took the fuel pump off and the entire thing was PACKED with ice. I mean Packed. I put some gas line antifreeze in the tank and no problem after that.

It has happened to me twice now so now I put gas line antifreeze in the tank all the time in sub zero weather.


Derek
You might want to try that.

[Bazooo guy]

There are regulations as to where the vent terminates.
Liquid fuel can exit the vent fitting during refueling and if it leaks into the tub it could be a problem.

http://www.uscgboating.org/regulations/boatbuilder_s_handbook/fuel_standards_partd.aspx

[brebett]

Be aware, you might have some water in the fuel tank. That happened to me once. It was doing exactly what hapened to grandsteph argo. It wasn't even in winter. Start good, go a few minutes, stall, wait 10 minutes starts again. I did put some antifreeze in but still do it. I had to take the fuel tank out ( a lot of worked since you have to pup out the rivets). I emptied the tank and let it dry. Since then never had problem. But up to now I didn't drive it with tracks in winter. I'm waiting to buy my chanel track.
Thanks for the advice, I'll take attention to that vent when I,ll have tracks. But the next time I'll have to remove the tank it will be easier since I didn't put rivet back. I doesn't need anything to hold it there.

[98Bigfoot]

Learned my lesson with water in the fuel too, had to clean the carb (water in the floats!), fuel pump iced up, blew out the fuel line changed the filter. The only thing I didn't do was remove the tank. I did do a pretty good job of siphoning the tank and crossed my fingers. I now keep a gallon jug of deicer, a few ounces are always ready to go with every tank fill, never had a problem with fuel system since and that was 8 years ago.

[Grandsteph]

All great advice guys. Water in gas tank might be an issue. How does one know if there's water in the gas. Any special way of finding out?

[ARGOJIM]

Most of the gas nowadays has alcohol of some sort in it which suspends water not to mention the havoc it wreaks on rubber parts. The easiest way I can think to check for water in the gas is by removing the fuel line and pump some in a dry water bottle, water floats and will look like air bubbles first and than float to the top after is sits.

[spyder]

water is heavier than gas. water sinks to the bottom.

[hydromike]

How does one know if there's water in the gas. Any special way of finding out?

... water floats and will look like air bubbles first and than float to the top after is sits.

Yikes.....

Well, Grandsteph.... on translucent tanks that let a little light through, it's sometimes easy to see the water in the bottom of the tank through the gasoline. If you're able to tilt the machine up on one side, you can sometimes get the water (if sufficient enough in quantity) to run down to one corner of the tank, and you can get a siphon tube down there and get the majority of it out that way, and then take up what's left by putting a little dry-gas (alcohol) in it. Alcohol has the wonderful property of being soluble in both gasoline and water (mmmmmmm.......beeeeeeeeeer....), and it'll help out with SMALL quantities of water.

If it turns out that you have a lot of water in there for whatever reason, it might be best to invest the time in yanking out the tank and doing a complete drain-and-dry on it.

water is heavier than gas. water sinks to the bottom.

Thank you, Spyder....

[Rock Doctor]

All great advice guys. Water in gas tank might be an issue. How does one know if there's water in the gas. Any special way of finding out?

Not sure if the Avengers are the same as the older machines, but:
On my Conquests, you can pull the fuel suction tube out of the top of the tank, under the seat. There is a dropped bowl molded into the bottom of the tank where the fuel is picked up with the fuel suction line. Most water will naturally end up in this "bowl". There is a product called "Kolor Kut", it's a paste that starts out Yellow, but turns Red when it comes into contact with water. I just smear a little of this paste on the end of a willow, and dip it into the tank, right down into the bowl at the bottom. If there is water in there, you will know right away. Simple to run a suction line from a small hand pump, or primer ball down into the bottom of the tank and pump any water out of there. No need to pull the tank out.

We get this stuff from any Industrial supply store, Barron, Nov Wilson, Franklin, Northern Metalic, Metalic Safety, Bumper To Bumper, Auto Marine, exc. Used to dip Gas and Diesel tanks all the time.

Kolor Kut Water Finding Paste - powered by Oilybits.com

Now, having said all that, you can usually see the water in the bottom of the gas tank, as long as you have sufficient light.

RD

[ARGOJIM]

Should have said ethanol, it will suspend water when it is flowed and almost look like a glass of beer going the other way (yes down, sorry typo) as it separates.