True all wheel drive?

[rodp]

hi guys does anyone know where i could get one in austrailia

You've probably got the same chances we have in the UK, non and a dogs. Shipping from the states would price out a conversion over here :o(

But on a positive note Land Rover (obviously the worlds best 4x4) parts are dirt cheap over here and there's loads of breakers so it ain't all doom and gloom :o)

[Shawn H]

I have to say I love my Argo, each time I go out I learn more about how to run it. In time you will to. For me I like knowing that when I go out with my Argo that I don't need to work on it to get back home. I just like having fun on it not working on it as others are off having a good time. I'll take that any day.

[brebett]

Hi, first of all I'm not saying that the t-20 isn't good. It is good. I had the red driven clutch. I agree that there had to be something wrong with that max 1V because I had all kind of trouble with it. I guess I was unlucky and got a bad one. I bought it new and had to return it twice because of trans problems. Then the chains the 1st year, then, then and then. I finally got rid of it. The dealer was 2 1/2 hours from home and ran out of business. I guess that's where a big problem was, the dealer.
Like I said for my needs I want a machine with a low gear. Even in snowmobile I need the one with low gear. I never go fast with my machines, I don't need to with low gears.

But to say it again I'm not saying that the max is no good, I just talked about my badluck with it. If it wouldn't broke down that bad I'd probably still have it or bought another one. But once you get burned with something you ...

Sorry if I offense you ( guys with T-20). It wasn't my idea at all.

[JohnF]

As far as the practicality of each machine argument goes...

It was practicality of a gear range choice in the design, not practicality of a machine. If you want a high/low choice in your T-20 I can do that but it will cost complexity and weight and probably wouldn't be practical given the intended purpose of the machine.

And you say, "Everyone who says ...

You miss my point. All I said was that you haven't been in the situation where you thought to yourself, "self, it would be nice in this circumstance if I had a higher/lower gear ratio than I now have."

That's a lot of pictures.

[thebuggyman1]

Boy, this turned into interesting reading.
For any newbies out there getting confused with all the personal opinions flying here: Get out to a group ride, check out the different machines, and drive a few....see what YOU like.

Back to the high/low gear issue. There is one drawback to higher horsepower....fuel consumption. A good motor will over come the need for the additional ratiosIMG_0015.jpg Here's a 600# machine with 40HP towing around a 1200# machine......and doing it quite easily. It's also quite fast, won't beat a superchief, but still quite fast.

[jpswift1]

It was practicality of a gear range choice in the design, not practicality of a machine. If you want a high/low choice in your T-20 I can do that but it will cost complexity and weight and probably wouldn't be practical given the intended purpose of the machine.

You miss my point. All I said was that you haven't been in the situation where you thought to yourself, "self, it would be nice in this circumstance if I had a higher/lower gear ratio than I now have."

That's a lot of pictures.

It will cost complexity and weight and wouldn't be practical? Take another look at the picture of what Mike is building. Not a lot of extra weight was added with the high/low gearbox. Also, there were some Swamp Fox AATVs that had a high/low gearbox, and there have been members that added a high/low range gearbox to their machines without lots of added weight and complexity.

And yes, there are a lot of pictures, and in each of those pictures it's people demonstrating how the T-20 provides you the a nice full range of gearing that most folks would desire over a wide variety of terrain. You said you've only ever owned an Argo. If that suits your need and works for you, great, but you really need to drive some other machines out there to experience them first hand so you can compare and contrast them based on actual driving experience.

[Model Citizen]

[jpswift1]

What I like about the T-20 is that you might have to think quick, but you don't have to think much. About 4 min. into this video we're climbing this really, pretty steep hill ( the kind where you take a deep breath before giving it throttle) & I guess the T-20 was in low gear (Shhh..I know there really isn't one), because I wasn't even at quarter throttle & it just climbed like it was on flat ground. Then when we reached the top & decided to open up...I just gave it more throttle to get in hi-gear (I know there isn't one of those, too). Didn't have to think about anything. It just does it. I like that. As long as you don't break a chain, it's 6 wheel drive all the time.

Bridget

No low range, no high range, no shifting, no thinking about what range you want it to be in when you go from hills, to flat terrain? Wow, Bridget......you and Whipper must have some sort of magical cast aluminum box in your machines! Oh wait, so do thousands of other AATV owners and it's been pretty much unchanged since it was developed in 1969.

[JohnF]

I'm guessing this is some sort of hot topic or something. Please go and read what I said; I can't see where I triggered such a defensive debate.

It will cost complexity and weight and wouldn't be practical?

Right. Why would you add complexity, weight, and cost if the simpler system provides a performance band that fits the use of the machine. That wouldn't be practical.

Where is this line of reasoning going wrong?

Take another look at the picture of what Mike is building. Not a lot of extra weight was added with the high/low gearbox.

Mike's project looks like fun. Heck, playing with his machine shop looks like fun. He has a high/low gearbox on that? I guess I missed that. I thought he said it was a T-20 from an Attex. Anyway, adding a high/low gearbox will make the transmission, what 30%,50%,100% heavier?

Anyway, the decision of the practicality of adding weight/cost/complexity is all up to the designer and his/her idea of the vehicle use.

Also, there were some Swamp Fox AATVs that had a high/low gearbox, and there have been members that added a high/low range gearbox to their machines without lots of added weight and complexity.

Apparently then the argument that a CVT provides all of the gear ratio range ones needs with a T-20 has proved false for some users of these machines. And any weight/cost/complexity added to a design unnecessarily is a lot to an engineering type. Maybe this is where our conversation has strayed.

And yes, there are a lot of pictures, and in each of those pictures it's people demonstrating how the T-20 provides you the a nice full range of gearing that most folks would desire over a wide variety of terrain.

Okay.

All they (and Bridget's video) show me is that those machines fit their use. Cool. The designers can be proud.

You said you've only ever owned an Argo.

Both statements are true.

...but you really need to drive some other machines out there to experience them first hand so you can compare and contrast them based on actual driving experience.

I've driven a Max II. It went to the end of my (admittedly very short) trip and back again. And it annoys me that the Argo steals power to turn. Especially in the snow with tracks on at 8000+ ft elevation when I don't really have power to spare.

But that isn't important to the comparison I've given because all I've done is give the text book comparison of the designs except where I gave specific advice for learning to drive the non-admiral Argo transmission.

I'm not pro or anti any of these. I think longevity proves that all of these machines have systems that are working for their intended uses.

I also wonder, given the arguments of the obviously pro T-20 contingent, why the designers of tanks don't just strap on a T-20 and a CVT? (Well, kind if they do have a CVT in the form of an automatic transmission and torque converter - but that's different.)

Seriously, I don't exactly know where what I've said has derailed. I suspect it is linguistic.

[Bazooo guy]

I dont think its the t20 that changes the gear ratio
Its the cvt.
Heres a quote from Wikipedia
"A continuously variable transmission (CVT) is a transmission that can change steplessly through an infinite number of effective gear ratios between maximum and minimum values."

[JohnF]

No ... it's been pretty much unchanged since it was developed in 1969.

I get it. You just want to be anti-Argo. Whatever.

I dont think its the t20 that changes the gear ratio
Its the cvt.

That's right. The T-20 has only one range except in the specific cases that jpswift outlined. Most, but not all, non-admiral Argo transmissions provide two.

[Vortex]

I have so much fun reading all the posts...You guys can start a new religion on transmission...build church, preach the creator...Damn I am wondering if we all go to the same muddy heaven!!!

[Model Citizen]

[jpswift1]

I get it. You just want to be anti-Argo. Whatever.

Whatever? I just want to be anti-Argo? Why would I want to be against any AATV? That just doesn't make any sense.......this is such a small niche market and I'm all about promoting AATVs in general, so we all need to stick together and get the word out there about them. I'm anti quad and side by side (unless it's a Scrambler Gotcha, REB, AV4, etc, but you get the point ). Their cocky attitudes always get them stuck when trying to follow us. But then again, once we made our appearances at rides like Busco, they see our machines coming through the trails and give us thumbs up and stand back and watch us conquer the terrain that would swallow their machines. We even offer to take them for rides to show them what our machines can do. I know there are quite a few quad and side by side folks that we converted. But anyway, I like the build quality of the Argo, but I don't like the fact that the engine is in the front and I don't like the transmissions, but Mike took care of that with his project......again, props to you on that build, Mike! I don't care much for other AATVs out there like a Terra Tigers either, but I'm not "Anti-Terra Tiger". I think you get my point.

And you said, "I thought he said it was a T-20 from an Attex." in reference to Hydromike's build. A T-20 can be from an Attex, Hustler, Tom Cat, Kadoo II, Arkat, JB's Avenger, Swamp Fox, Camel Centipede, Max, Chaparral, or any of the many machines that originally came with them and it can be simply interchanged among all the different makes, or a custom project with ease.......just drop it in and go. So you can see that I was simply stating a fact, about thousands of T-20 transmissions being made and pretty much unchanged since 1969. This also makes parts very plentiful and inexpensive. A piece of extremely reliable, tried and true equipment that is relatively inexpensive to service, repair, and locate parts for makes folks very happy.

And just because there are a handful of T-20 machines out there that have a 2 speed gearbox, doesn't mean that it's needed. Companies back in the heyday of AATVs were experimenting with lots of stuff. There are people now that build stuff, just for the fun of it and just to do it to see if it can be done, like Mike. We were at MaxIVMark's shop kicking the ideas around on the setup of it and it's just something cool to think up and see it come alive from a thought in your head to reality. Do I need a collection of AATVs in the double digits? No, but it's fun to have all of them.

John, I think this might be the linguistic that those of us that don't have machines with Lo-Hi ranges felt moved to respond to. In your particular machine, it may be necessary. There are many of us that have expanded the performance expectations of our machines without multiple gear ranges. Please understand. It can be done.

Bridget

Bridget is right on the money with that statement, and I think that summarizes everything that we're trying to say.

[rockrewls]

Buy the machine that fits your application or applications if possible, if not you wont be happy as it wont really work properly for YOU!!