Project: Argoceptor

[great white]

I've already introduced my 86 conquest and my plans to use it in GSAR: http://www.6x6world.com/forums/argo-...tml#post217610

Here's a recent pic of it with the LED headlights and the trailer I'm in the middle of building for it:

img_6399.jpg

img_6679.jpg

Trailer is a converted pop up trailer. upgraded the axle, upgraded the springs, built a dovetail and built a bi-fold spring assisted gate/ramp.

I've been bouncing plans around for the old Argo and it's blown up into a full tear down project.

I toyed with names for it, SARgo being a front runner. I had thought "spider" might be cool, as it's an 8x8 and I'm going with a full suspension conversion on it. Eight articulating wheels and A-arms just seemed kinda "spidery".



But recent plans have lead me to a new name for it: Argoceptor.

(IntArgo or HondArgo just sounds stupid!LOL!)

Allow me to explain.

It's got a Kohler Magnum 18Hp in it. Runs fine, always starts cold, fairly "torquey" and has been reliable so far this year (I've only had it since summer). But there is no denying that it's just plain old and tired. And boy o' howdy is it loud! Transmission gear whine aside, that little air cooled lawn tractor engine is a rattler. It's also pretty hard to get the rig to pivot from a stop. Lots of throttle required to turn it from stopped. Part of that is the crappy knobby tires on it, but you have to get the rpms up pretty high before it will even budge at all. Almost full throttle to get it to pivot on even loose gravel. you can almost forget about it when the tracks are on. If you're not moving, you're not turning....

I've got it tuned up to where it's about as good as it's going to be and the clutches are working as per. The belt is also fairly new. So it's just the kohler and old age that's the problem. No shame in it, 31 years of service more than anyone would expect of such a basic engine. I'm thinking it's time to retire it, probably re-purposed in some other type of yard equipment like a snow blower attachment or a lawn rake/vacuum. It still runs, so I'll find a purpose for it.

Thinking about a replacement engine now, I checked around to see whats available. Lots of Briggs options and the various car engines (sprint, etc). A wrecked quad or side by side would be another option. All of them are not without a somewhat considerable cost and some requiring a fair bit of fabrication.

Well, I'm cheap and we're in the middle of building a new house. So that kind of knocks out an "off-the-shelf" engine option.

Fabrication is nothing new to me, so I figured i'd look at swaps.

Sprint/firefly/swift swaps seem to have been done with varied degrees of success. Fuel injection and whatnot would be nice. But I'd have to find a car, buy it and have the carcass around until I had salvaged everything I needed/wanted out of it. Assuming you can find one around these parts with a decent engine, you're looking at anywhere from 1000-2000 bucks. Scrap yards won't even sell you the whole car, which means buying parts and that is going to drive the cost up to around what you would pay for a whole used car. The wife is not going to buy off on a stripped car hanging around the new house, and I'm not enthusiastic about that either. No, that's out.

But, tucked away back in the shed is my 1985 Honda V45 Interceptor:

img_1332.jpg

It's a project that stalled a long time ago. It's been sitting for about 10 years (engine properly stored). It's a low mileage (35K KMs) 750 cc engine. HP is right around 80-90, torque is at the 46 ft/lb mark at 7500rpm. That torque looks to be at high rpm for a crawler like and Argo, but being a 180 degree crank and a 90 degree V4, the torque curve is almost flat right off idle. At 1500 it's making as much as the Kohler is rated, at 2,000 rpm the Kohler doesn't stand a chance.

I'm not hurting for bikes (83 Yamaha Venture and 89 FJ1200), so the Interceptor is going to donate it's engine and electrics.

Hence; Argoceptor

Fitting it to the frame isn't a problem, that's just working out the mounts and alignment. Coincidentally, the V45 is pretty much right about the same size as the Kohler withing a few inches here and there. Weight is also close, somewhere around 30-40 lbs more (mostly because of the integrated transmission). Liquid cooled means it's much quieter than the Kohler and opens up the option of a cabin heater arrangement for winter.

I'm also toying with just dumping the Argo frame all together and building something like this:

argoframe17.jpg

I can feel the current frame twisting and bending over terrain like a warm twizzler, so making a new one makes sense to me to form a solid base for a suspension and the V45 engine.

The V45 has an integrated transmission, so I have to figure out what to do for shifting it. The output shaft on the V45 will just use a regular style drive chain to the Argo transmission. I'll machine out a sprocket to fit the input shaft on the Argo transmission to accept the drive chain. Current plans are to run it open, but I may go to an oil bath like this gents made for a Razor conversion:

oilbath.jpg.

Clutch is easy, I'll just use the interceptor hydraulic clutch and mount the master cylinder on the LH lever/bar.

High/Low/Reverse will just be the stock Argo box/shifter.

Shifting the V45 will be via a "heel-toe" pedal on the floor of the Argo.

Throttle will be the same twist grip arrangement on the RH lever, but the one off the Interceptor. Steering will be the stock Argo Hydraulic brakes.

The Interceptor electronics will be stripped of unnecessary bits and adapted to the Argo body. Likely, most o f the Argo electrics will go in the trash, except for the brake cooling fans, bilge pump, etc.

Exhaust is another question. But I've got an old V4 4-into-1 header that will chop up and MIG up nicely, allowing me to build my own exhaust. At least to the point where I can either get it outside the tub or run it to a rear exit. A rear exit would allow me to use the exhaust hole in the body as a radiator air inlet so i may go that way.

The V4 is one quiet and smooth engine. Being a 90degree V4, it has perfect primary balance, so nearly no vibration. It was designed this way do it could be solid mounted in the bike as a stressed member. But it also means I can just hard mount it in the Argo with reasonable confidence it's not going to crack anything, at least from vibration...

So that's the plan. Long term project for sure. Probably won't start until next winter some time as building, moving in and setting up the new house is going to eat up most of my time for the next year or so....

[Noel Woods]

My suggestion would be to not use a high revving engine in an aatv. The power band is exactly the opposite of what you need unless you prefer to build a "racer." Most motorcycle engines are high revvers and produce high hp when compared to torque. In an aatv the more torque you have in the lower portion of the powerband is best. I researched your remarks regarding the fairly low start in the power band of your engine of choice and torquewise it should work. The thing to worry about is that high horsepower. That much power will find every weak link in your drivetrain being chains, bearings, axles or a combo thereof, not to mention the frame, which would probably fall victim to the hp too.
Many folks have used the 1.0 or 1.3 Suzuki three and four cylinder engines very successfully. I've seen the three cylinder mounted in a couple machines and its a neat install. Even the 600cc engines found in the Japanese mini trucks look attractive for hp and torque and are also liquid cooled for quietness and longevity, as well as the ability to add a heater.

I like the way you are thinking, so you have my attention. Keep us posted on which way you go.

[great white]

Nah, you're just not familiar with the V45. Its not like the newer bikes where you have to wring thier necks to make power.

The v45 doesnt make that 86 hp until 10,000 rpm. It wont be operated there in the Argo application. 5,000 rpm is where it will probably max out at. I used to chug around all day at thAt rpm in high gear and it just didnt care. Its the nature of its power curve/delivery. At 5,000 rpm thats around 45-50 hp for a V45. Right around the numbers a "hot rod" vtwin briggs makes. So the v45 is pumping out even less hp than the suzi car engines at that rpm, as the suzis are in the max 85-100 hp range (depending on what model you ise). So the vf is acfually going to be easier on the argo drivetrain than the suzis.

Torque isnt an issue. The v45 is a stump puller. It hits 40 ftlbs at about 2000 rpm and it pretty much a flat curve from there.

No need to spin it crazy to make power. Its just how the engine is designed.

Heres a sample chart for a later vfr (redesigned vf, makes more than the vf):

[ARGOJIM]

Normally I'd steer you away from this, but apparently it has been working for some. I also thought the V45's were shaft drive, but if that picture is the case apart than that negates that point.
Here is a post of a machine with a member you may wish to contact. http://www.6x6world.com/forums/trans...nsmission.html
Those interceptors have a pretty good collectors following and could possibly bring you good fundage if you were to sell it, if I remember correct when I did my V45 Magna 10-12 years ago the carb kits were very expensive (over 100.00X4) and the floats were discontinued so hopefully the bike runs good.

Good luck with your build, sounds interesting.

[great white]

Interceptors are chain drive, magnas and sabres are shaft. The chain deive you see in theicture above isnt from an interceptor, it s from a razor that a guy adapted an R1 engine to a razor transmission.

My interceptor is pretty highly modified. Any "collector value" is essentially gone.

Engine is healthy and strong as a bull. 35,000 kms isnt much mileage at all and even though i havent been riding it, i know how to store a motorcycle properly.

[great white]

And it begins:



Phase one was a rebuild of worn out parts on the Argo. Turned out to be mostly just chains, seals and bearings. With that coming to a close, its time for phase 2:

Engine swap.

Phase 3 will be some steering/cockpit changes and phase 4 will be 8 wheel independant suspension.

I pulled the ol’ ‘Ceptor in from cold storage and started pulling off the bodywork. It hasn't run in several years, so I wanted to make sure it was still mechanically solid. Ran fine when I put it away last time, so it should be a fairly easy job waking it up.

But it was not to be. Before I bought it many moons ago, the PO had wrecked it. The front end to be precise. In the process of (I use this term VERY loosely) “repairing” it, they had swapped on an 83-84 fuse panel. Well, this is an 85 and that's a one year part. So they had hacked and spliced the harness, stealing power from places they had no business messing with.

So when I tried to kick it over: nothing. Their bodge had finally failed. I traced it all down and figured out what the issue was, chopped out their mess and ran an adequate sized jumper to get power where it needed to be.

I know the carbs are a mess by now, so a couple squirts of fuel down the throats and kick it over. Coughs a couple times, catches and runs a few seconds and then shuts down.

That's good enough for today and I push it aside to bring the stuff back in the garage for the night.

Tomorrow I’ll yank the carbs and drop them in the ultrasonic cleaner. Once I know it runs decently, I’ll yank the engine and start measuring and fitting in the Argo.

[great white]

yanked the carbs today and dropped 'em in the ultrasonic cleaner.

Dropped them back on the bike. Jumped a 12v battery to it and after a few cranks, started right up.

Ran a little ragged until it cleared it's throat and then it settled down into a nice steady idle.

So it's soild. tomorrow I'll pul the engine out of the Honda frame and start working out the details of the engine swap.

[great white]

Little work building better seating for the argoceptor. Seat foam from a ford fusion:



Took it out for a quick burn and the ride is great! Need to fit it a little better and stitch up some leather upholstry.

Also did some work on the rear floor and battery/storage area:



Trying to now decide if I should go straight across the back with a seat or stay with side benches:

[great white]

Getting closer to the final form of the seats:







I decided to go with the two side benches instead of a single rear bench across the back. If needed, I can get more people in there that way.

The battery/storage compartment will still be there, but the top lid will be strong enough to be used as a step and there will be a fold down outside step to aid entry instead of trying to scramble in over the sides. The rear benches will get backs on them anyways.

The front seat back will be raised on a frame just a bit from what you see and the center portion will fold down to be used as an armrest or a pass through area if you need to get from the front seat to the back. For example: water entry and you need to get to the back to lower an outboard motor for water travel or maybe if you need to get something out of the rear storage compartment.

[great white]

The V45 is going to be taller than the Kohler Magnum. Especially so with the V45 airbox (tossing the irbox means no end of problems with CV carbs so I'm keeping it). So I need some way to cover it in the engine bay and that will look somewhat like it should be there. Sticking a scoop on the stock HDPE "hood" wasn't going to look good at all and I wasn't looking forward to the thought of it.

Then i remembered I had a hood scoop I was building for my 83 Mustang up in the rafters. I shelved it when I found a stock 83 hood bulge to use instead. I pulled it out and set it on the stock hood:





Yup, I like that! It's already very close to the right size and since it's fiberglass, it's an easy job to modify it to fit the opening and raise it up a bit. It would also be easy to add a small "bulge" in it (sometimes called a "power dome" in Ford speak) to give some extra clearance, if needed.

You can also see a Pontiac Firebird hood vent (red thing) in that pic. I'm thinking of finding a spot to incorporate them also, just to help in shedding engine bay heat (well, cause it looks kinda cool too!)

You might ask why the opening is to the rear instead of facing front like a traditional scoop. I've seen them done that way before and it looks kinda cool (not mine, pic I found on the net):



But the opening on mine is more for cooling than anything else. Since the Argo is essentially a sealed "tub", when it will be drawing air in over the radiator (the V45 is water cooled with puller fans) it needs a way out. The hood scoop opening at the back will allow the heat to escape and having it escape at the base of the windshield may also help with keeping the glass clear (rain, snow fog, etc). Facing rearward also makes more sense to me for water travel: forward opening wouldn't be great if entering water too fast (by mistake) or if a wave happens to breach over the front. Engine bay heat might be a bit of a problem with the windshield folded down, but I don't tend to drive the Argo with it down anyways.

In keeping with the "ArgoCeptor" theme, I'm going to find a way to incorporate the instrument panel from the Interceptor in to the Argo:



Has all the stuff I need to monitor the V45 and a few other neat bits. I may even hook up the speedo. I can either build or buy a correction gearbox for the speedo cable to get it close to actual speed. Getting the drive for it off one of the axles is easy peasy. I'll probably have to make up fiberglass dash piece to fit it all in. Likely one that spans the whole width of the body and make it a bit more "cockpit" like. I'll just make it so it can be attached with fasteners to the existing HDPE body rather than try to fiberglass it directly to the HDPE (fiberglassing to HDPE is a recipe for failure!).

I'm also thinking of adding striped to the body, in keeping with the white red and blue Interceptor theme:



I'd like to paint the orange HDPE body white and do the red and white interceptor style stripes, but the HDPE won't really take paint well and sooner or later it will turn into just a chipped and flaking mess. But I can have some vinyl graphics made up and apply them to the body. Probably white base, with a red and white stripe on it that will go on the upper body half front to back, incorporating the name "ArgoCeptor" at the rear and maybe the "V45" or "V-Four" logo on the hood somewhere. Have to think on that one for a while. It looks good in my mind's eye, just not sure how it will translate to real life...

[great white]

Put some work into getting the Kohler ready to pull. With most of the bits out, i could take better measurements. That big v4 750 is going to be a squeeze!

I’m not sure if it will fit lengthwise. Its a good 8-10” longer than the Kohler and the Argo transmission might be an issue, space wise. Theres room in the tub to go further forward with the v4, but its hard to say how tight a fit it will be until I actually set it down in the engine bay. I also don’t want to get the front cylinder header pipes too close to the plastic hull. I may end up having to see if I can sneak the argo transmission back a few inches, but there’s precious little room for driver and passenger legs in the front seat already.

Height of the V4 is also a problem. Well, it’s not a problem if I dont use hood. Yeah...that's not going to happen!

I will have to modify the airbox. It’s just too tall with it sitting down in the engine V between the cylinders. But it only means making a cut and rotating the front half of it down to level. I can then plastic weld a patch piece in and there should be minimal disruption to the airbox other than added volume (not always a bad thing!).

The hood I have a couple options. I can make a spacer to pop the oem hood up about 3-4 inches:



But I have to leave the rear lower than the front in order to still be able to lower the windshield and still get the height I need in the front to clear the V4.

Second and third options are I can mount the fiberglass hood facing forward or rearward:





Opening facing forward still doesn’t look right to me and the hood slopes to the back pretty severely to clear the windshield pivot. I’m also not sure how to make the opening look like anything else besides “unfinished, even if I add some kind of meshing. I could make it look like something finished, ut it will always stand out as “odd”. The angles are just all wrong.

Open rearward still looks the best, but the front still looks pretty high. The scoop is actually sitting level across the top as it has a taper built in to it for the “scoop forward” orientation, so the “nose high” is a bit of an illusion from the angles.

I think I’m still going to go with the rear facing fiberglass hood. The front I can mitigate the “blocky look” by sculpting the side and leading edge to more of a taper to meet the body and the V4 engine is only about 10” wide at the air cleaner and heads. That means I may still have to make a “bump” in the middle at the front, but that's pretty easy to make look OK on a hood. I might even be a to add the firebird vents to the sides of the bulge to make it look more integrated and pull it all together more visually. IOW: like the bulge is designed to be there.

The v4 swap is not exactly “falling together” like it’s meant to be there, but a plan is taking shape...

[great white]

Fooling around with photoshop:







just kicking ideas around......

[curtisbyrne]

Hey that looks cool.i bet a separate V4 badge would look nice between exhaust screen and where the windshield frame comes down.

[great white]

I officiated over 2 divorces today:





After the official proceedings were finished, they went their separate ways for that happy and swinging single time everyone experiences after getting out of a dying/dead relationship:



Then they noticed someone new that they might like to “get with”:



Then the always awkward first date, a night cap at the end and inevitably, someone ends up in bed with someone else:





It was awkward, slightly uncomfortable and maybe even a bit painful, but still strangely satisfying. Both have enough curiosity to want to try a second date!

:lol:

Man, that V-four looks the business sitting in there! Quite a serious looking piece of kit! Like a 60’s muscle car with too much engine in too small a chassis, it looks ready to party!

So the big V45 fits....well, mostly. It’s sitting quite high right now, but there’s a good 5” it can be dropped. The old Kohler engine mount bracket is narrower than the V45 oil pan and the engine is sitting up on top of it right now:



There may also be an additional inch or two I can drop if I rework the “power pack” tray. But with just the 5” drop from removing the Kohler bracket, that will get all of the V45 under the stock hood height. All of it except for the carb plenum/air cleaner housing. That's easily handled with a custom hood. The real issue is its further forward than what I measured, which may be a problem with packaging it all inside the Argo body. Anything that alters the airbox too much turns CV carbs in to a total jetting nightmare...

Tomorrow I’ll look at getting it fit in there at a proper height. Which means cutting the Kohler engine mount brackets off. Sort of a “not turning back” point, but in reality I can always weld them back on if needed.

Lots more to sort out and build, but its a good start!

[mightymaxIV]

Soooo, how are you going to go from a chain sprocket out put to a clutch and belt system??