A Frontier and Adair tracks

[mightymaxIV]

If I remember correctly, Noel’s frontier is running a set of elevated belt tracks (or what I call a bush track or escargo style track)? A uhmw grouser (how thick?) that has metal blades attached (how attached) to the face of each grouser. You can see how even a narrow (17”?) version of that track style can pull and clean out in the mud. I build lots of those for locals (alaska) with extra wide belts, 1-1/2” uhmw, and full thickness through bolts. You can make the track extra wide and aggressive but extremely easy to drive and skid turn with a width equal to the tire itself. Fixed position guides and no sticks that can fall between guide tips, getting leveraged into tires. Can also be run flat as well. Thanks for any info, it’s been awhile since I have seen that machine, but have always considered it a mild version of what we use up here, simply because it works amazingly well and is extremely dependable-
I hope to go on a ride with you guys some day-Jeff

Yes Noel is running a set of what I call old style Adair hybrid tracks with a metal plate about 1/8 inch thick attached to every second or third grouser but I have no idea how thick the grousers are. Pertaining to old style verses new style I have run with a least 10 machines with the new style narrower tracks and Noel with the Hybrids and I could see no notable difference in mud performance, the only difference I observed was that it seemed the old style tracks weren't quite as fast in the water and that the old style tracks required track turners and noticeably geared Noel's machine down.


Added: 14:14 hours Tim stopped making the old style tracks because a lot of people didn't like them. Some folks said they geared the machine down to much and limited the top speed, other didn't like having to put track tuners on their 8x8's. When I was at the Mud Nationals Tim gave a set of the old style tracks to a Big Foot Owner to try out. Two days later I saw the owner of the Big Foot loading those tracks in the back of Tim's machine. He had already reinstalled his set of the new style tracks. I asked the Big Foot owner what he was doing and he said he didn't like anything about the old style.

The Tracks you Refer to would probably work really well on my 950SX because that big Argo is just to fast anyway. I considered the old style tracks but if some thing happens in the bush and you lose a track you only have two wheels driving you on the non tracked side. This has happened to Noel once and he said it was a bitch getting his machine back to camp with only the back and rear wheels driving the machine on the non tracked side.

I have heard you say you can run these tracks with out tuners but I would hesitant to do that (I would be afraid of possible damage to my chains axles and bearings) but if you think it can be done I might consider it at some time in the future.

What I want is what works for me and I am always open to something that might work a little better.

[Buzz]

appreciate the info on the adair version of some of these tracks. An easy solution to avoid track tuners (and gain reliability/redundancy in the event of a thrown track or axle/bearing problem) is to simply run a very wide Elevated belt half-track, or set of half tracks on each side (Quad Tracks) similar to the set up some commercial machines use. Some added benefits are that a machine set up this way turns the easiest of any set up available, requires the least amount of power, is less expensive, and if quad tracks are utilized, paddles can be put on the rear-most track only (the track around axles 3/4) which rides much further out of the water. I would challenge anyone to throw an elevated belt half track. I do think it’s virtually impossible, and I have tested it extensively. I have another gentleman who wants to trade-in his Adair pro-series tracks for a more specific Bush Track set up, so we’ll see if we can get some video comparison. I used to have a couple sets of those around the shop at one point in time, but not for awhile.

[Buzz]

What’s the status of getting track tuners from Adair? It’s a simple idler hub similar to any meat wagon or boat trailer axle, but I’ve always sent people to Adair to purchase them.

[mightymaxIV]

I have Questions Buzz: Are Your grousers an 1 /12 wide? Do you put extra Grousers on your mud tracks? Are the grousers closer together? Does your mud track swim (pretty well?)(fair) (better than Adair's). How much of top speed do you lose using your mud tracks? Does your system work without track tuners and if so will they tear up your chains? Bearings? Sprockets?

[john swenson]

hey guys...great discussion on tracks , etc. as i said back awhile on here , i've been running half tracks on my max 2 highboy lately and for me than seem to perform as good or better than the full tracks i ran . as buzz said , it seems like it would be much harder to throw off one. and i definately have more power and it really turns well . looking forward to trying them at busco in some good mud in the future . johnboy va.

[Buzz]

I have Questions Buzz: Are Your grousers an 1 /12 wide? Do you put extra Grousers on your mud tracks? Are the grousers closer together? Does your mud track swim (pretty well?)(fair) (better than Adair's). How much of top speed do you lose using your mud tracks? Does your system work without track tuners and if so will they tear up your chains? Bearings? Sprockets?

Dan-

1-1/2” wide UV- stabilized uhmw
It’s a mud, tundra, sidehilling, swamp, snow, tussock, heavy loads, and run flat (if needed) type of track. I don’t typically describe tracks I build as mud tracks only, although I have yet to see anything else work as well in really bad mud. What makes it pull so well in the mud is the pure vertical surface area “anchoring” effect and “full-tire width” open area between extra wide belts. Cleanout width really keeps the track going in the thick nasty stuff, and extra wide belts give added footprint that matters greatly.
Swimming- without added paddles: okay (I think slow)
With paddles: much better (as well as any other track I’ve seen). But I think all brands of tracks I have tried are “slow” in the water. If you have to swim a very long ways (uncommon), they make motors for that. Available payload in the water is improved with any uhmw track since the naked grousers themselves actually float. Swimming across a pond or large swamp with directional control: no problem.
Speed: reduced ground crawling speed of approximately 20-25%. Improved performance down low whete you need it. You can also take advantage of high range that would otherwise be unusable in some machines. I don’t know anyone who drives an argo at sustained speeds of over 14 or 15 mph. If they do, they are (or will be) doing increased maintenance/repair on their machines.
Track tuners: recommended, although a wider uhmw grouser with routered edges where contact is made with tire treads can slip easier. More noticeable if you drive faster, slipping load feels like climbing a slight grade. Fuel economy improves with tuners (or just run elevated belt half-tracks or quad tracks instead: no track tuners needed at all)
Tread direction on slipping tires also plays a role if you decide to slip some tires. Tire treads do not hang up on grousers if the treads are in the “swim” position in the forward direction. If the machine can handle driving up a slight grade, it can handle slipping tires if wanted so long as grouser shape and tire tread direction is taken into account.
Most people do not understand wind-up: they picture it as if a wrench is thrown into a set of gears as if everthing will explode (not the case at all). All tracks experience some level of wind up. The most important factor is proper tire set up so that tensioners are not damaged, and the remaining load that remains (wind-up) from unequal tire sizes, can be dealt with as “slipping.” Slipping is easy to deal with if tires are set up correctly. At that point, the options are simple.
I will also say that all tracks are not created equal. Tracks I build are not escargo, beaver dam, or adair versions. It’s easy to think all tracks of the same type would all have the same traits (performance/durability ect). But they vary greatly, and most all will work if set up properly. Some tracks do have “watch out” conditions to avoid, and most folks learn to deal or put up with that fact simply because the get-stuck-factor mostly goes away with tracks. In closing, I always say any track is better than no track, but it’s true. Any shoes are better than no shoes.

[RICK55FLA]

Can anyone tell me who made these tracks? They came on my 2012 Frontier 650 6x6. [IMG][/IMG]

[Buzz]

Looks like beaver dam metal tracks to me. I have some of those here at the shop. They are very heavy, require larger wheel spacers, and for some reason the edge of his metal grouser body goes most all the way to the edge of the belt (nearest the body). They are also harder to turn on soft ground because of the squarish profile. You’d definitely want track tuners with those, tires do not slip as easily as wider uhmw. Like all metal tracks, you will occasionally bend grousers if ridden hard. I’m not sure if his belt is beveled away from the guides near the tires. Probably has a metal hinge as well. As long as you have proper clearance to your body, you’d probably be okay, but you might be a little short on power, especially if tuners are not used.
As nice as I can be.

[onlyonce]

Buzz,
What is your opinion on how well a 1 1/2" uhmw grouser would work if they all could be heated up and bent into a slightly cupped shape, rather then straight across. Nothing too radical.

[Buzz]

onlyonce- On the profile of the grouser, I have made the portion under the tire taller or “crowned”, there was no discernible difference in mud/snow performance. You can make any profile you want and could even router the surface of the grouser so that you machine more of the thickness away on certain parts of the grouser while it is flat on the table. I have played a lot with various bolt-on objects to add surface area. Some were tall, short, narrow, wide, shaped like chevrons, tapered on the ends ect. Some were even mounted so that they were similar to flaps on an airplane wing. Most all of them simply grab water but don’t move it properly. Instead small eddies are created and track speed is severely limited to gain any benefit paddling-wise.
What I have found that does work is adding surface area approximately 2” tall x 6” long oriented at the same angle as the paddle tread on new style argo tires. I do this on the outer belt (my belt is very wide which helps). This way the paddle-specific add ons are getting a fairly clean stream of water “outside” of the main grouser body. The other important factor is the spacing of these add ons. When you grab water and move it, you do in fact create an eddy and need to allow for the water to stabilize before the next paddle comes along. Otherwise, the next paddle will end up trying to push water that is already moving the same direction- (not very effective and not much swim force). I describe it as trying to jump straight up into the air and then attempt to “run” or “push off”. Thete is nothing to push off against, and you don’t really go anywhere.
So as far as bending a grouser to affect it’s shape, I think it’s more trouble that it’s worth. I can change the profile (2 dimensions) on the router table, and can easily “cup” the the grouser by changing its thickness in certain spots, but don’t think it really works, and I insist on NOT removing material that would weaken an otherwise thick/monolithic piece of uhmw. This way it’s incredibly strong. Machining away parts of the grouser is bad, and so is cutting the grouser apart and then screwing it back together.
If I want to add “cupping” or additional suface area in a 3rd dimension, I prefer to simply bolt on a separate add-on to the elevated belt. This way I can accomplish exactly what I want, the add-on can be manipulated by the ground at times without affecting the throug-bolted fixed position guides at all, and I (or someone else) can do it after the track is assembled if wanted. Don’t know if that answered your question.

[onlyonce]

Thanks Buzz. That helped answer that question and another I had about adding on to the belts. I have watched your channel track 1 video and was impressed with how much speed those side paddles added. They seem to be angled as you mentioned. Were you getting any difference in speed if you angled them the opposite direction on the belt so they would be pushing water away from the tracks? I can also see how having the larger paddle (belting) bolted to the angle which are then bolted to the belt would allow you to play with the shape and size, but allow for some flex or give when trying to fit between trees or twisting the belt on a sidewall in a ditch. I assume your tire has the tread with point facing toward to match the angle of paddles instead of the other way as one would have when just trying to swim with the tires. I don't know how much the tread direction matters when turning inside a track in water. Are you creating too much turbulence if you bolt anything on the smaller inside belting?

[Buzz]

I haven’t tried them the other direction mainly because I want them to match the angle of the swimmer tread on the argo tires when the tires are mounted in the swim position. That seems to work best. I know that in reverse, the track doesn’t paddle as well (same with argo swimmer tires), so that proves how they’ll do if mounted the other way. I’ll position tires based on their size within the track and whether I want them to hook up or slip. Elevated belt tracks do give you double the options on placement (big pair/small pair, corner/middle) to optimize track tension. Tire direction for swimming I think is mostly defeated once inside a track. I think mounting paddles on the inside belt would probably help as well, but not worth the risk for me (I don’t want any potential tub scratch hazards on the inside. I do know that mounting twice the # of paddles also doesn’t help. In fact it may slow it down. I’m still experimenting with paddle versions on the bigger uhmw grousers.

[onlyonce]

Thanks Buzz

[Buzz]

I might have a short swimming video later today. Just aluminum paddles 1x2x1/4” thick first, then a comparison with longer rubber paddles added to the aluminum. On a 22-1/2” wide center axles half-track. On hard ground it puts the rear tire 2 to 2-1/2” off the ground and turns the easiest of anything I’ve tried so far

[john swenson]

sounds awesome ..thanks for sharing your creative track experiments !! it is a lot of fun trying out different ideas , really satisfying when something works great. that to me is whats so enjoyable about this site ...seeing all the things everyone comes up with . johnboy va.