Mighty Max's new 650 Argo 650 HD with swimming tracks

[pcmark]

Dan, you are absolutely correct that the two areas where the Admiral comes in is where it doesn't eliminate total power to the inside wheels in the forward direction, as well as allows counter rotation -- both assets that hydrostat machines (and, dare I say, my power wheelchair!) have proved very beneficial. Where the confusion of this conversation has come in is whether both sides of the machine have some sort of traction? Again, if you truly have one side high-centered, with no traction, 1/3 drive or counter rotation has zero affect, as you simply need some traction on both sides of the machine for those benefits to work. Needless to say, I've been high-centered and stuck in a counter-rotating vehicle more than once because one side simply didn't have traction (there's that power wheelchair again!).

For fun, here are some photos of my "6-wheel" products that work on the same principles discussed here regarding forward independent drive wheel speeds and counter rotation (though, obviously not 6-wheel drive, but center drive, turning on a counter-rotating axis). Thanks.

[mightymaxIV]

Mark-there is what an Admiral should do and then what it does, until I turned the handlebar right there simply wasn't enough power going to the left side. Cool wheelchair!

[Obsessed]

Mark, you are correct. This particular example would work the same with or without an admiral transmission since you are basically just locking the brake, as if you were turning, on the side in the air.

Mike I think you are correct about a skilled driver in that situation where only one side had traction, would simply apply breaking to the free spinning side so that power would be transfered back over to the side that needed it.

Dan, i also see what you are saying and agree that your new admrial gave you the ability to do the same, but with the added benifit of the gear reduction, on the other had...i wonder if you would have also forced power to the grounded wheel by turning away from it and actually shifted it into the high gear ratio (that would have been less effective, but a unique charateristic of the admrial) in fact the only time that transmission would ever act like an older open diff trans would be while going straight forward and in a situation of significantly different levels of traction from one side to the other...and under a turn of either direction a posi traction with split gearing is most likely...this is just my best guess as there is still a little mystery in how that new design actually does perform

pcmark your comment about a high centered machine remaining stuck weither the tires are turning forward or backward or not turning at all...is very true...if you cant get a bite on somthing you probably need a buddy there to help

Dave that ride was a blast and your right Mike Reed is a pretty good driver...we've learned a lot of dont do's and have had enough stucks that we are all starting to get it figured out a bit...i think that the bigger factor between the your new 6x6 650 HD with tracks and the older 6x6 Bigfoot with tracks, was the difference between 24" and 22" tires as well as your slightly longer wheel base and improved ground clearance (dont say anything to Mike but the driver might have had a little bit to do with it also )

just want to get back out and play...

[mudbug3]

[ QUOTE Obsessed ] I think that the bigger factor between the your new 6x6 650 HD with tracks and the older 6x6 Bigfoot with tracks, was the difference between 24" and 22" tires as well as your slightly longer wheel base and improved ground clearance.


In this particular situation , I don,t think that an open differential ,brake steer Argo , that had 24" inch tires would have been able to lock up the left bank of wheels and then skid steered over the log that Mike was straddled. This log was too large in diameter for Mike to do this. In contrast though , I was able to counter rotate backwards. This was because my left wheels were turning three times faster than my right wheels. This is why it was so much easier for me to back up and then reposition my tub to drive over this log.

[mightymaxIV]

Just food for thought here- I don't have experience with the older style Argo transmissions but if you have a track in the air and one in the mud it is hard for me to comprehend being able to brake the air side hard enough to make traction go to the side in thick mud (that would take some pretty serious brake power to over come the power required to turn tracks in very thick swamp mud), this is a question for someone like Rock doctor who has probably been in that situation several times with the old style transmission.

[Mike]

Don't over think it. Having the track in the air doesn't make a difference. You are fully braking that side just like you would when you turn. With the brake applied to that side, it is fully stopped and power will go to the other.

[lewis]

Just food for thought here- I don't have experience with the older style Argo transmissions but if you have a track in the air and one in the mud it is hard for me to comprehend being able to brake the air side hard enough to make traction go to the side in thick mud (that would take some pretty serious brake power to over come the power required to turn tracks in very thick swamp mud), this is a question for someone like Rock doctor who has probably been in that situation several times with the old style transmission.

Maybe i am missing exactly what the question is asking but here is what i know from 6 years of operating Argos. Breaking the side in the air is easy. It is the same as in water. Break the air side and the other turns full power. The brakes are quite healthy on the Avenger and the Argo tires are aggresive... some time to aggresive. In those situations something has to give....traction or belt slip. One must out do the other. I like the traction so i will tolerate the occacional belt slip.
McCoy has a lower transmission and the difference is obvious, he can also run in high gear and not down shift for close turns with his Bigfoot. I on the other hand must run in low gear but, i am much heavier and have 2 additonal wheels and i usually have passengers. The bigfoot is a fine machine and so is the Avenger with the old transmission.

Driving ability also has a lot to do with it (not knocking anyones abilities), as we get new members at Busco they(as well as all of us) go through a learning process. Knowing how you machine will react to the different terrain is a must to learn. Even a tire change on a machine will change the characteristics of it's handlening abilities and what it will and will not do.

These are just a few of my thought on the subject.

[mightymaxIV]

Maybe i am missing exactly what the question is asking but here is what i know from 6 years of operating Argos. Breaking the side in the air is easy. It is the same as in water. Break the air side and the other turns full power. The brakes are quite healthy on the Avenger and the Argo tires are aggresive... some time to aggresive. In those situations something has to give....traction or belt slip. One must out do the other. I like the traction so i will tolerate the occacional belt slip.
McCoy has a lower transmission and the difference is obvious, he can also run in high gear and not down shift for close turns with his Bigfoot. I on the other hand must run in low gear but, i am much heavier and have 2 additonal wheels and i usually have passengers. The bigfoot is a fine machine and so is the Avenger with the old transmission.


Driving ability also has a lot to do with it (not knocking anyones abilities), as we get new members at Busco they(as well as all of us) go through a learning process. Knowing how you machine will react to the different terrain is a must to learn. Even a tire change on a machine will change the characteristics of it's handlening abilities and what it will and will not do.

These are just a few of my thought on the subject.

I have nothing but praise for Lee's new Frontier with the old style transmission, I spent the day with him yesterday, please read my previous post. I have learned first hand that if you get the old style transmission with one side in the air you can lock down that side and send the drive to the side with traction.

[mightymaxIV]

Admirals true six wheel drive system

Have you ever watched a quad with a locking front end spin one tire for a minute or so before the locker finally kicks in and sends drive to both tires? The Admiral works in much the same fashion. At least three times on our trail ride Saturday my transmission was sending drive to one side in high range-that's not suppose to happen with an Admiral.
A simple tug on the handle bars to get the machine thinking right and the drive goes right back to both sides.
Like most mechanical systems Admirals transmission is not perfect and you have to help it think it's way through some situations, but simple correction is usually all it takes.

[mightymaxIV]

I finally figured out what's causing the clicking sound in the Admiral transmission

If you have an Admiral transmission you have probably noticed that there is a small clicking sound in high range when you turn left and right.
When you are in low range the clicking noise is more pronounced and can often be pretty annoying. So what’s all this clicking noise?

I finally got the chance to take out the floor panels wash my machine and clean the tub in side and out. While I had the panels out I lubed the chains and then drove the machine around with all the panels off just to make sure every thing was working right. I was having trouble at Busco putting the machine in low range. I played around with everything and found that it was nothing but a simple adjustment to tighten the cable and in a couple of minutes everything was working right again.

I put the machine in low range and then drove it a minute and would put it back into high range to make sure everything was adjusted right.

As I was driving the machine in high range turning left and right and watching all the mechanical components I saw something I thought was really strange. When you turn an Admiral left in high range the disk brake on the right side locks completely up. What? When you turn right the left side locks completely up. What? This is just the opposite of a normal Argo gearbox. Apparently when you turn the machine right and the left brake locks up this somehow sends a signal to the transmission to slow down the right wheels and speed up the left wheels. Wow, the Admiral transmission is a piece of work!

Okay so what’s making the clicking noise? Admiral transmissions have chains coming straight off the transmission to the front axle, these chains have a little bit of play in them and unlike the middle and back chains they HAVE NO ADJUSTERS so there is a little slop in them even when the machine is brand new!
So Admiral owners; here what’s causing that clicking sound, when you hit the handlebars right to turn right the left disk brake locks completely up and the slack in the right front chain takes up and causes that clicking sound we are all hearing.

When your in low range the clicking is even more pronounced because when you first start the counter rotation the front chains are spinning in opposite directions meaning that the slack on the front chains is being taken up at the same time on opposite sides so you get an even louder clicking sound.

After I finally figured out what the noise was, I ran the machine in low range and watched what was going on. The good news is that’s it’s just a natural part of the machine and the way it works and your machine is not falling apart.

Now I can finally feel safe running the machine in low range understanding what’s going on in there without worrying about the machine coming to pieces.

[Rock Doctor]

Just food for thought here- I don't have experience with the older style Argo transmissions but if you have a track in the air and one in the mud it is hard for me to comprehend being able to brake the air side hard enough to make traction go to the side in thick mud (that would take some pretty serious brake power to over come the power required to turn tracks in very thick swamp mud), this is a question for someone like Rock doctor who has probably been in that situation several times with the old style transmission.

As this was already answered a couple times, I won't comment, other than to say "YES" you can easily stop either side, regardless of conditions.

One thing I seem to be seeing alot of is comments on the difference in "steering" between the Admiral and the older machines. Particularily the ones about HAVING to lock one side on the older machines to turn, where with the Admiral you slow the inner bank of tires to 1/3 speed to turn. I don't get this at all...........YES, you CAN lock up one bank of tires on the older machines to turn sharp, but in NO way do you HAVE to lock up one side. In fact, I would say that MOST of the time you DON'T lock one side to turn, just slow it down (a good example would be slight steering corrections while rumbling down a trail). VERY similar to the Admiral, except with the Admiral you don't have the option of turning sharp in high range, you HAVE to stop, shift down, and then make your sharp turn.
Am I missing something

This is NOT a slam against the Admiral, I just don't get why there are so many comments directed at the theory that you HAVE to stop one bank of tires on the older machine to make a turn.


RD

[mightymaxIV]

As this was already answered a couple times, I won't comment, other than to say "YES" you can easily stop either side, regardless of conditions.

One thing I seem to be seeing alot of is comments on the difference in "steering" between the Admiral and the older machines. Particularily the ones about HAVING to lock one side on the older machines to turn, where with the Admiral you slow the inner bank of tires to 1/3 speed to turn. I don't get this at all...........YES, you CAN lock up one bank of tires on the older machines to turn sharp, but in NO way do you HAVE to lock up one side. In fact, I would say that MOST of the time you DON'T lock one side to turn, just slow it down (a good example would be slight steering corrections while rumbling down a trail). VERY similar to the Admiral, except with the Admiral you don't have the option of turning sharp in high range, you HAVE to stop, shift down, and then make your sharp turn.
Am I missing something



This is NOT a slam against the Admiral, I just don't get why there are so many comments directed at the theory that you HAVE to stop one bank of tires on the older machine to make a turn.


RD

RD, you completely miss my point, this comment is directed at the cause of the clicking sound in the Admiral transmission when it turns.

How ever I do think it's fascinating that my left disk on my admiral completely stops turning when I turn right in high range, wow what's going on in that transmission?

[Rock Doctor]

RD, you completely miss my point, this comment is directed at the cause of the clicking sound in the Admiral transmission when it turns.

How ever I do think it's fascinating that my left disk on my admiral completely stops turning when I turn right in high range, wow what's going on in that transmission?

LOL, actually you missed my point
The first line of my reply was in referance to your comment about being able to brake one bank of tires on an older machine. I never commented or referanced the "clicking" noise at all.

The rest of my comment was unrelated to the first line, just an observation about HOW the steering works with the older Trans and new Admiral Trans.

I was thinking about commenting on your other post about the clicking, but have nothing to add, I'm as facinated as you with the operation of the Admiral as you seem to be, lol.


Cheers
RD

[mightymaxIV]

Rd, At the time I posted the comments on the old style transmission I hadn't been around them that much. Since then I have seen them in operation first hand. Got it now, never a problem if the operator knows what he is doing and in a lot of cases the old style actually is a big advantage since it turns sharper and controls much better in the water. Running with Lee who has the old style I have seen the good and bad of both systems

[pcmark]

RD, you are correct that the standard "steering transmission" is proportional, where you don't stop the inside wheels in most instances, but apply just enough pressure to slow them. A claim of the Admiral is that it won't lose motion on hills when steering, suggesting that the standard transmission will. However, again, if you simply apply proportional steering pressure with the standard transmission, you can keep all wheels moving while steering, just like you can hold a high-speed turn. I think the Admiral transmission's two benefits are that it makes steering a bit more idiot-proof in high because it won't let you steer to a stall of the inside wheels, and secondly it features counter rotation. I went with the standard transmission on my 2011 model that I've enjoyed all summer, and I don't think I've lacked any capabilities -- but saved money and complexity.