Springers, how, why and are they worth it?

[akcrawler]

OK, i just decided to step in the water and ask a question. From what i am seeing i am assuming just by looking at the pictures that the bearing bolts are where the entire assembly is bolted into the machine. Is there a stiffener plate inside to lock all the towers together and if not where is the vertical load transferred to as the spring action occurs? I know you have said this is the prototype, seems like a lot of load on just those 4 bolts attached to the frame unless your frame has a unique design. I am not a engineer but a mechanic by trade. It seems like a lever effect will occur with each spring action. Just curious i may have missed a picture somewhere.

Lewis

I am not throwing stones, but I agree. Most of the force will translate to vertical, but the angle of the shock/spring assembly will try to push the top of the tower into the body. Is there some matching device inside the tub to translate that force back down to the frame? It seems like the moment force on the bearing bolts would get pretty high when the wheel deflects to the end of its range. I think it would be possible to tweak the frame unless it has been reinforced. I am mostly just curious how you guys with springers have dealt with this issue. It could be that the force isn't high enough to cause damage in the ligher machines and the frame in the MuddOx is strong enough to handle it.

[suntiet]

I think its awesome. I sit and study the pictures of the springers trying to figure out a way to build one.
some day!!!!

[lewis]

OK, i just decided to step in the water and ask a question. From what i am seeing i am assuming just by looking at the pictures that the bearing bolts are where the entire assembly is bolted into the machine. Is there a stiffener plate inside to lock all the towers together and if not where is the vertical load transferred to as the spring action occurs? I know you have said this is the prototype, seems like a lot of load on just those 4 bolts attached to the frame unless your frame has a unique design. I am not a engineer but a mechanic by trade. It seems like a lever effect will occur with each spring action. Just curious i may have missed a picture somewhere.

Lewis

[Model Citizen]

[kghills]

Now that some of you have seen a MuddOx springer in person and running in the Hare Scramble in Ashtabula there surely MUST be some opinions of how it performed.
We remember when we built our springers about 7 years ago, everyone had questions & we tried to answer them as best we could with pics & videos.
If we go back in our memory banks we can think of a few questions we were asked and maybe those same questions can be answered about this particular conversion.
How much travel does it have? Does it swim & does the tub stay dry? How much wider is the machine than stock? Can it go in mud with no problems? How much weight did it add to the weight of the vehicle? Can it run with tracks? What kind of u-joints are used? Are the u-joints welded to the axles? What kind of shocks are used? How many bearings & flanges are needed? Does the extra weight cause any overheating issues? How do you adjust toe in and camber?
Just a few for starters, but there hasn't been enough video to gauge how it performs & no one is sharing anything. Just wondering if it is worth it?

Bridget & Whipper

Bridget, glad to see you decided to join in on the discussion. Let me try to answer your questions. The Mudd-Ox suspension has 4" of total travel. It does swim and the tub seems to stay fairly dry but I would not consider the current prototype a good swimmer. The prototype is 7" wider than stock on each side and I am pretty confident I can cut at least another inch off each side in the production models. So far mud has not been a problem, or at least no more of a problem than it is for a standard Mudd-Ox. Each prototype tower assembly weighs just over 70lbs. The stock axle bearings and bearing support it replaces weigh 36lbs. Weight of the production tower/suspension assembly will be in the 50-60lb range as the prototype was overbuilt to test the design. In theory it will run with tracks but has not been tested with them yet. 1310 series spicer 5-153X u-joints are used throughout. The u-joints are not welded to the axles but that is an interesting idea. The prototype is running on Progressive Suspension 425 series dual rate shocks but production machines will run a custom shock built just for Mudd-Ox. One extra bearing and flange set is used per axle. The Mudd-Ox is designed to carry far more weight than I could possibly add with suspension components so overheating is not an issue unless you plug the radiators with mud. Toe in, caster and camber are non adjustable and pre set in the design. No one is sharing anything as it is against forum rules at this time, so thank you for asking.

Pro bono? People do that for people that have a limited ability to pay. That doesn't sound good.

Anyway, just asking simple questions. There must be "a little" curiosity out there.

Bridget & Whipper

For the public good.
"the burden they carried pro bono publico"
I look at it as for the good of the 6x6/8x8 community. I forget that most people are financially driven so I guess I have a different perspective of how it might sound.

Funny this topic should pop up again. I just got a few questions on some of my Youtube videos just last week asking about my springer kit. I'm not sure if the two guys who were asking are from 6x6World but there are still some people out there who are interested in my springer. I also get questions at Ashtabula. I'm sure Marc does too.

I have no regrets about my springer. I'd love to build another.

I believe member Bridget brought the subject back up.

Ya we still get inquiries even though we stopped at 9? conversions, but we NEVER had anyone pre-order one based on the prototype.
Feels good asking some questions instead of answering them for a change.

Bridget & Whipper

I find it hard to believe you have NEVER heard of anyone pre-order on a prototype. But just to help you out: Elio Motors

i don't wan't to trample on any toe's but it's funny how all the bugs and spring rates have already been figured out by WHIPPER and still some what to start over trying to re-invent the wheel. don't get me wrong i think it's the challenge that drives some people but in reality when push comes to shove negotiations are better than none, but it's just like any other time consuming project, you want it to go to the right home and not lost forever. remember CASH IS KING.....just my 2 cents

wfo, this one catches me off guard a little. I figured you were an old "heavy metal" truck guy like myself. I merely used old school 4x4 parts and mated them to existing bearings with a simple A-arm moving as a parallelogram. Spring rates for a 2000lb machine that needs to carry a moose and gear has hardly been figured out by WHIPPERs lay down suspension design for carrying a single passenger in an 800lb machine. That would be like saying an F450 spring/shock has been figured out because a Suzuki Samurai was already in existence. These are far different applications for a different market and customer. But you are correct, cash is king and that is why the Mudd-Ox suspension is being done before the Max. Typically I think it is safe to say a Mudd-Ox customer is in a better position to pay the additional amount for a suspension option. Re invent the wheel, yes negotiations are better than none, but in order to negotiate the other person would have needed to return the phone calls and that did not happen is my understanding, I suggested it also.

Here are a few pictures of the prototype



That's it for now. Busy with my new Coot project. Keith.

[wfo]

i don't wan't to trample on any toe's but it's funny how all the bugs and spring rates have already been figured out by WHIPPER and still some what to start over trying to re-invent the wheel. don't get me wrong i think it's the challenge that drives some people but in reality when push comes to shove negotiations are better than none, but it's just like any other time consuming project, you want it to go to the right home and not lost forever. remember CASH IS KING.....just my 2 cents

[Model Citizen]

[George]

Funny this topic should pop up again. I just got a few questions on some of my Youtube videos just last week asking about my springer kit. I'm not sure if the two guys who were asking are from 6x6World but there are still some people out there who are interested in my springer. I also get questions at Ashtabula. I'm sure Marc does too.

I have no regrets about my springer. I'd love to build another.

[Model Citizen]

[kghills]

looked at it up close. On the Muddox xl large tub its wider than the Copperhead with 25s. Apparently the smaller tub Muddox it may be as wide as the Copperhead. its very stiff and probably too stiff for the max speed it goes. I don't think there were mud holes wide enough to test it. I saw it swim, just like the Copperhead, barely, not much freeboard. I'd say its still a prototype.

Still a prototype. Softer dual rate springs being made should be here the end of tbe month. SolidWorks files being updated and when spring rates figured out custom shocks will be ordered and machine will be 2 inches narrower. 50 units are pre ordered so I guess it's worth it to sombody but honestly not to me. Look for the MaxIIs prototype next year at Ashtabula if all goes well. I only have so much time for pro bono work.

Keith.

[jerseybigfoot]

looked at it up close. On the Muddox xl large tub its wider than the Copperhead with 25s. Apparently the smaller tub Muddox it may be as wide as the Copperhead. its very stiff and probably too stiff for the max speed it goes. I don't think there were mud holes wide enough to test it. I saw it swim, just like the Copperhead, barely, not much freeboard. I'd say its still a prototype.

[Model Citizen]

[kghills]

I see you have come to the dark side

After seeing your video of the Copperhead with tracks there was no way I was going to let you have all the fun Marc.

Besides, I sense there is still good in you. Keith.

[whipper-ag]

[jerseybigfoot]

I see you have come to the dark side