Springers, how, why and are they worth it?

[brushcutter]

Amphibious machines are sold to a very small market , and adding another $6,000 - $7,000 for a springer suspension to an already expensive machine would price them right out of the market for most buyers. This is why Argo only offers suspension seats.

SMH, correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't you recently post this? SuperATV RZR Floats - YouTube How much do you reckon it cost him to get that rig together? Quads don't come with huge lift kits, nor do 4X4 trucks, thus the monstrous aftermarket industry... it's all about vision... look at these and think of a frog with an 8" or more lift. You want huge tires? No problem Argo 750 hdi set up for 6 axles instead of 8... now you got enough tire to tire clearance for it. Monster tires, full, liftable suspension AND it floats... OH YEAH!

I think it is because the tracks need to be tight to stay on. As the wheels travel up and down the centerline distance between axles changes so you couldn't keep a constant track tension. So every bump would send the tracks through a too tight then too loose cycle. I have pondered how to make it work before. They work on a tank because they are sprocket driven and I think they have a idler wheel to take up the slack (George would know the answer to that).

Correct, actually they have many sets of bogie wheels to do this, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of deflection at the bottom of the track, but then they only weigh a few dozen tons. Dang Abrams is like a driveable earthquake, even the ground around it tries to get out of the way.

[jerseybigfoot]

Here is the link to the Argo springer. Not sure of the success using multiple suspension units vs a full side plate. In the link there is a Argo springer with tracks.

http://www.6x6world.com/forums/argo-atvs/10543-argo-springer-2.html

[Obsessed]

Ok..here's my 2 cents worth for anyone who might care....

First of all, if we're all honest, you cant really be in luv with these machines with out being at least a little turned on by the thought of a springer or some type of suspension...definitely a super cool option that most of us would enjoy, no different than the thought of hydrostatic drive, tracks, cabs, winches, etc, etc, etc...if your gonna build the perfect little personal ride that's different from everyone else's toys then its gonna take a lot of special parts...lol...and typically better is just better when it comes to certain aspects of overall performance...

As far as tracking a springer.. Mark's comment is probably right on the money and seems to make sense to me. I, like many of us here, have probably spent way too much time thinking about this combination also...I'm not sure that an A arm suspension is perfect for tracks for two reasons ...1. The movement of the wheel not only changes the circumference (length of track) of all the tires on that side of the machine...but also by design it allows each wheel to move outward and inward from the rest of the wheels which would also make it more difficult to run a single track over all of the tires that would normally be directly in line with one another on a "stiff" machine........however....as my thoughts develop, I'm not so sure that it might not be better, Based on the fact that when the machine is setting still and the suspension is all neutral then the tracks would sit over all three tires (or four tires) just like any other machine, But where most machines try to throw a track is when excessive pressure is put on one tire or another, On a springer that would actually cause the wheelbase to change and get slightly longer which would make the tracks slightly tighter which would make them possibly harder to throw off... I think that low air pressures and soft tires would help minimize part of the problem with cast and camber changing throughout the arc of the suspension, and it might help relieve a lot of the stress that the front and rear A arm suspension would experience when the tracks did get tight...I have other conflicting thoughts also that seem to argue both yes and no but I think this generally sums up my contribution to the conversation....I will say that it would be pretty easy to test if you had the right guys willing to spend the time to throw some parts together :-)

tim

[amphibious drew]

I think it is because the tracks need to be tight to stay on. As the wheels travel up and down the centerline distance between axles changes so you couldn't keep a constant track tension. So every bump would send the tracks through a too tight then too loose cycle. I have pondered how to make it work before. They work on a tank because they are sprocket driven and I think they have a idler wheel to take up the slack (George would know the answer to that).

I would think to use a track on a springer, you would have to lock each sides suspensions together making it act as if it was a right and left suspension only rather than 6 independent suspensions.

[MAX IV Mark]

I think it is because the tracks need to be tight to stay on. As the wheels travel up and down the centerline distance between axles changes so you couldn't keep a constant track tension. So every bump would send the tracks through a too tight then too loose cycle. I have pondered how to make it work before. They work on a tank because they are sprocket driven and I think they have a idler wheel to take up the slack (George would know the answer to that).

[kghills]

Off topic, but I have questions, and i figure that those with Springers are watching this thread. Please feel free to pm an answer to avoid a derailment.


Has anyone tried running tracks on a Springer? Why not? How did it work?

RD

Rock Doctor, I do not think asking if a springer will take tracks is off topic. I think it is a legitimate question any one dicovering 6x6s or springers would ask. I do not know enough to say one way or the other but have thought about it and sort of figured it would not work. Maybe one of the track building members can chime in. Since it is not about selling tracks and about track theory I think it would not be against Mike's forum rules for them to respond. If tracks on a springer would work I would think it could be a whole new generation of 6x6.

Keith.

[Rock Doctor]

Off topic, but I have questions, and i figure that those with Springers are watching this thread. Please feel free to pm an answer to avoid a derailment.


Has anyone tried running tracks on a Springer? Why not? How did it work?

RD

[wfo]

everybody must face the fact that a springer is the only way to go on any 6x6 8x8 10x10 or whatever, they wont brake any more than any other type of vehicle that has suspension or not, if you clip a tree or boulder at speeds you will brake or bend or destroy whatever you have , ive seen trucks, quads 4x4 , side x sides at the dunes bottom out flip and roll and just rip apart and thats just the way it goes, you fix, repair and do it again its all fun..who cares how much it cost....ive seen guys buy brand new side x sides for 15 k dollars and put another 15 k in trick suspension and still tear them up, who cares, but they get awesome pics of trashing their rides, i can go on and on but who cares ,just speed that money and tear it up..

[Joe H]

Don, thanks for the awsome refrence to 195 and I think Joe's dad. I don't really think it is off topic. It is a historical refrence to ability in the desert of a solid axle amphib. I feel like Joe's dad might call me a woosey if I turned an Attex into a springer. Do you know what tires 195 originally had. I think he made it 175 miles officially but was lost for another unofficial 50. These are exactly the sorts of things I wonder about. Don, also since you have experience with balloon tire ride. What's your opinion if you dare? Thanks again Don.

Keith.

The Attex baja machines were bone stock all the way down to the balloon tires, the only work done to them was to meet race rules. Balloon tire ride is something that should be experienced, after all they were designed for these machines and work quite well with proper air pressure, I would be willing to bet that 90% of the balloons that I have seen on machines have been over inflated,that is no bueno, too easy to rip a center or get a punture, the softer the tire, the more it gives, the harder it is to punture. That being said, when you compare them to todays tires, they wore out relatively quick, and puntured more easily than 2 ply tires in todays world, but hey, it was 1968 and they were cutting edge at the time.
As far as if a springer is worth it, for me no- I am a purist and appreciate the old machines for what they are, simple capable machines.
Springers are really cool though!

[rodp]

Amphibious machines are sold to a very small market , and adding another $6,000 - $7,000 for a springer suspension to an already expensive machine would price them right out of the market for most buyers. This is why Argo only offers suspension seats. Recreatives should offer them too as a option. Building a suspension front , bench seat was the best modification that I've done to my Max IV so far. With 5" inches of suspension travel ,the difference in comfort level is amazing.

Or of course, part of the reason that amphibs are such a small market is that quads, side by sides etc have suspension and are therefore perceived as smoother, more comfortable, faster and more controllable than a plastic bathtub with wheels and no suspension. The simple action of making a model with suspension may possibly open up a whole new market. No-one will know until a manufacturer bites the bullet.
One thing's for certain, IF a manufacturer DOES do it, and IF it took off it would seriously affect the non suspension providers !!

[mudbug3]

Amphibious machines are sold to a very small market , and adding another $6,000 - $7,000 for a springer suspension to an already expensive machine would price them right out of the market for most buyers. This is why Argo only offers suspension seats.

[rodp]

Wow, that was a few days back... Over 300 miles and the machine was "still functioning excellently" - able to go, but it's driver wasn't, the relief driver was at the NEXT check point... well that sucks. I wonder just what mods they made for the race, also if there are any of those machines still around. However I would think that answers my question, yes a springer IS "worth it" for those who want a nice cushy ride, a machine they could drive all day and not go home feeling like they had been run over by their machine. For that kind of riding a suspension seat just won't cut it.

Think of it this way: how many quads would you see out on the trails if they didn't have " the smoothest ride available"? How many "frogs" would you see if ours did? Remember, the first quads on the market had ZERO suspension... NONE, the manufacturers listened to their customers and quickly added it, thus that market grew into the monster it is today. This site is for advancing our hobby(more like obsession) right? My thoughts are that the springer IS the next big step in frog evolution. The RI machines still have a few things that could be offered : bullet proof chain adjusters and factory split shift, Argo now has a transmission that can counter rotate, so the next logical step is >>>suspension<<<. I think the real question Keith should be asking is : If you were looking to buy new, and manufacturers offered springers, would you buy one? I would!

Without a doubt you are correct, they should be offering a suspension model at least as an option now. A well built and reliable factory springer model would sell well, and not necessarily be that much more expensive. However, if anyone actually does it is another matter as it's easier to sit and do nothing if you're still making money. Once the first one goes that route though the other will have to follow.

[brushcutter]

Wow, that was a few days back... Over 300 miles and the machine was "still functioning excellently" - able to go, but it's driver wasn't, the relief driver was at the NEXT check point... well that sucks. I wonder just what mods they made for the race, also if there are any of those machines still around. However I would think that answers my question, yes a springer IS "worth it" for those who want a nice cushy ride, a machine they could drive all day and not go home feeling like they had been run over by their machine. For that kind of riding a suspension seat just won't cut it.

Think of it this way: how many quads would you see out on the trails if they didn't have " the smoothest ride available"? How many "frogs" would you see if ours did? Remember, the first quads on the market had ZERO suspension... NONE, the manufacturers listened to their customers and quickly added it, thus that market grew into the monster it is today. This site is for advancing our hobby(more like obsession) right? My thoughts are that the springer IS the next big step in frog evolution. The RI machines still have a few things that could be offered : bullet proof chain adjusters and factory split shift, Argo now has a transmission that can counter rotate, so the next logical step is >>>suspension<<<. I think the real question Keith should be asking is : If you were looking to buy new, and manufacturers offered springers, would you buy one? I would!

[Mike]

Don, thanks for the awsome refrence to 196 and I think Joe's dad. I feel like Joe's dad might call me a woosey if I turned an Attex into a springer. Do you know what tires 196 originally had. I think he made it 175 miles officially but was lost for another unofficial 50. These are exactly the sorts of things I wonder about. Don, also since you have experience with balloon tire ride. What's your opinion if you dare? Thanks again Don.

Keith.

22 hours and 300 miles from the beginning of the race to the third checkpoint not including the lost miles. The full article that Don linked to is in the Attex brochures section of the site about 3/4 of the way down the page: Attex Brochures

[kghills]

Don, thanks for the awsome refrence to 195 and I think Joe's dad. I don't really think it is off topic. It is a historical refrence to ability in the desert of a solid axle amphib. I feel like Joe's dad might call me a woosey if I turned an Attex into a springer. Do you know what tires 195 originally had. I think he made it 175 miles officially but was lost for another unofficial 50. These are exactly the sorts of things I wonder about. Don, also since you have experience with balloon tire ride. What's your opinion if you dare? Thanks again Don.

Keith.