Max 8x8

[Mike]

Can I get an Argo 8x8 or a MuddOx owner to measure total overall length?

According to argo's site, the 8x8 Avenger 119" long - Argo 8x8 Specifications

How long is your Max going to be? 122" ? (96" + 26")

[Model Citizen]

As long as you tighten the lug nuts CLOCKWISE, you'll be fine. Don't forget. CLOCKWISE.

AATV Envy??

This is turning into an awesome fun build for all of us.

Bridget

[hydromike]

[/URL]

How long is your Max going to be? 122" ? (96" + 26")

Yup! 10'2"

This is turning into an awesome fun build for all of us.

Bridget

Oh for goodness sake, I've just cut two pieces of plastic so far, and taken some vintage photographs! Winters in Buffalo are loooong, and coooooold. Luckily, I have 5.5 gallons of hard cider and a stack of John Coltrane albums to keep me warm in the garage whilst I ponder the possibilities of the project. Hopefully, the cool parts are still to come.

~m

PS.... OK.. .so clockwise is (making motions in the air....) that way, right?

[lewis]

Well the Avenger with the Brush guard/wench and Boat motor bracket is right around 10'4 or so. Do parts that are sticking out count?

[hydromike]

I think I could come up with a couple inches somewhere!

Really, though; when I had the tub sitting there in the garage all cobbed together, I was astonished at how long it looked. I'm actually pleased that it's NOT that much longer than an Avenger, or other 8 wheel machine. I'd hate for this project to end up a carnival side show attraction, or just a gimmick.

Subtopic change: Let's talk about tires, without getting into any fights.

JP helped me score a pair of 25" Rawhide IIIs yesterday. I really like the Rawhide IIIs on the Tank Trainer, and they're an all around impressive tire on most amphibs.
They'd take a 9" beadlock rim that I'd source from MuddOx. The price is certainly fair on them, both the tires and the rims. They're a known quantity for a lot of us.

I was also looking at something more agressive, but still in the same realtive price range. Just surfing around, I found the D932 MudMax made by Nankang.



This particular one comes in a 26x12x12, which means I'd have to source the 12" from Recreatives, likely. RI seems to want quite a bit of money for the 12" rims last time I asked (although wind direction and moon phase seems to play a factor in price setting there, sometimes). I can get these at a comparable cost of the Rawhide IIIs, but their swimming performance is completely unknown. I know that nobody can really predict whether a tire will swim well on any particular machine.

Almost every single bit of my riding is done on snow/mud/dirt, etc., with very little swimming time, except for Busco. They don't have a huge sidewall profile, but it's about the same, if not more, than a 26" Terra Grip. It's a six ply tire, so it'll be right back into Terra Grip territory with the ride quality.

I'm mainly worried that the buying the rims is gonna hurt, and I already know what MuddOx rims cost for the Rawhides.

Decisions, decisions....
~m

[Roger S]

Tires/wheels.. glad it's your choice and not mine. One thing I keep in mind is how much weight I added and how much turning resistance I got going from the little 22 runamuks and 8" wheels to what I have now with 9" wheels. Before lowering the center axles and added HP, it was a a lot of effort to turn.. of course that's an argo trans and not a t20, but it'll still affect your fun factor. Depends on if you just want to drive normal, or slide it around some, do some dougnuts in slick conditions. Agressive tires on heavy 12" wheels might be fun in a bad hole. The rawhide isn't my favorite tire, but I can't fit 25's anyway, so it's not a choice for me. The rounded profile let's them slide in a turn easily, and on a mudd ox wheel, they're heaven when it comes to ride quality. What about the Titan AT's like Lance has..

Mudbug has 8 of those asx's on k locks.. we need to have a ride where everyone brings tires for us to try out

[Robinhood02]

eh there guys, my Max II 8x8 had a problem with the single # 50 chains so i had to upgrade the whole thing to #60 by getting the axles and sprokets from Argo (argo ran single #50 in the early 70s and they too had a prob thus they went to double #50) ,the XHD axles from Argo retail for $70 a piece and the single #60 sprokets run about $15 each up here, the Argo axles use a different positioning system ,it uses little divots and a set screw to keep your sprokets in the correct location not snap rings and therefore very easy to adapt to a diferent location on the shaft that is required by Max, the Argo axle is 1/2 inch shorter than the Max axle but is not an issue. the new larger brgs and holders are all the same from Max and Argo so you wont have to change anything there, i went with a 27hp kohler and it has plenty of power, the T20 is holding up fine (i also have a Max II with a 700 MXZ and it too is holding up so the T20 is bullet-proof) as far as the tubs and tops go, it is very dificult to get that right with used tubs so i bought 2 new ones cut them and had them welded profesionally (about $600) ive had to repair the welds in some spots since, so i wish they made the 8x8 tub. the Max II shifter is now in the back seat and is a pain in the butt, but the Max IV you will simply have to extend the linkage. one thing i wish i had done was lift the front axle brgs in the frame an inch or so, so that they not on the ground with the same preasure as all the rest to accomodate easier turning ,the T20 is posi-track so ive never been stuck in that unit, the Max II has a narrow chain galley and was a pain when trying to get the axles and sprokets lined up ,Max IV has wide galleys and shouldnt be a problem, if i can think of anything else ill post it for you,,,,,,

[Robinhood02]

sorry bout the double post, but it wouldnt let me edit my last post
,,,if you add the axle to the Rr ,it will make your Max IV more like a mid engine unit and will make for much easier modification to the frame, if you add the axle to the front you will likely have to mod the brakes as well due to the location of the brake drum/rotor on the axle, also most of the linkage will remain the same if you add to the Rr. it will ultimatly be decided by whether you want one large cargo area or if you want 3 bench seats for more people seating , i am in the process of converting a Buffalo to 2 bench seats and a shorter cargo deck (old style Buffalo with deck not dump box)

[hydromike]

Thanks RobinHood...

So, you've already DONE a Max II eight wheeler? Do you have any pictures? There are dozens of us that would love to see it.

I plan on extending the frame in the rear, and simply adding an axle pair. It'll make everything MUCH easier. I have the benefit of that added cargo space then, too. I plan on keeping the transmission above axle 3, and mounting the engine (whatever it will be ) between axles 2 and 3, rather than on a pedestel above the transmission.
I plan on raising the rear axle about an inch off the ground to facilitate turning. LIke RogerS says, turning will be a lot different, and if I can make it easier to navigate with whichever tire I choose, I'll do it. Earlier splined axle Max IVs used set screws rather than snap rings, so I plan on keeping that system. I've done the set screw MaxIV axle conversion on two Attex Racers, and it's a decent setup, as long as you keep the set screws tight. Locktite is the key.

I'm having my tubs professionally welded as you did, and yeah... it's pricey. I plan on beefing up the whole thing with an HDPE/UHMW plate in the end, so that should easily double the strength of the lower without issue. I did this on the Tank Trainer, and it added an amazing amount of rigidity to it. It's virtually impossible to break the ABS behind that UHMW.

I don't know if I'd add bench seats or anything really "schoolbussy".... I almost never carry lots of folks. Regardless, the options for the space in the back are there. I like how the Conquests/Avengers/etc. have all that storage room. Since I'm going with a pretty custom build, the Max VIII would definitely be set up with a split shifter on the T-20....

What specific problems did your Max II 8x8 have with the #50 chain? The Buffalo Truck, with its thousand pound payload seems like it gets by with single #50, but then again, I've never operated one for a long time (read: ever) under the conditions that would stress it.

::Edit:: Thinking more about tire size and raising the rear axle. I may be forced into a 25" tire anyway, since running a true 26" tire and raising it an inch would begin to cause clearance issues without tub mods. I dunno. My head hurts.

[Mike]

Robinhood, you have GOT to post pictures of the Max II 8x8 and your progress on the Buffalo.

::Edit:: Thinking more about tire size and raising the rear axle. I may be forced into a 25" tire anyway, since running a true 26" tire and raising it an inch would begin to cause clearance issues without tub mods. I dunno. My head hurts.

The newer Max IV tubs have more clearance. Even if it was an older one though, I think you would still have plenty of room to remold the body over the raised rear two tires without much effort. What may get you in trouble, depending on which wheels and tires you run, is having the tires too close to the tub. I don't remember if you said that you have the axles yet or not, but you may want to take that into consideration and build the axles a little longer instead of putting everything together and then realizing you have to run $$$ spacers. It's something I didn't think of until it was too late on Jennifer's Max IV

[Robinhood02]

I sold the 8x8 about three months ago but i know he is still around so ill see if i can get some pics of it,,,as far as the Buffalo goes ive already done the #60 conversion but have not done the rear bench or moded the deck yet ,so i could do the pics thingy for the Buffalo,,,i just didnt know anyone would be interested in such conversions,, sorry fellows..........hydomike if you put the motor down in front of the trani you will have MAJOR problems aligning the trani clutch with the engine clutch, you will have to move the trani to the right side and install jackshafts (not a good idea) the Buffalo got the motor down inside the tub by doing the Max II stuff with the jackshaft, If you look at the alignment closly you will see what i mean.the drive clutch sticks way out past the edge of the inside of the tub .therefore you cant get the engine down inside the tub without remounting the trani (way too big of a job).when i was concidering a Max IV 8x8 conversion I gave some thought to useing the tail end of a buffalo tub-top and add it to the back of the Max IV, it was gonna give me a deep tub well ,that with some creative construction could be made as high as the engine cover if you redirected the exhaust out the side of the engine cover instead of the rear, you could even put a water tight lid on it like a cooler top (for lots of beer as long as it is the good canadian beer of course) the second way i was concidering was to add the axles to the front and simply make a 6 seater , then for hauling large loads just remove the 2 rear seats and you would have one humungous cargo area, but like I said, you would have to get the brakes out of a Max II or major mod the Max IV brakes if you kept the brakes at all. I know there was an issue on where to cut the Max IV tub as well but be darned if i can think of it right now, i think it had something to do with the humps and bumps in the tub above the tires, youll only get one chance to do it right the first time so study your project extreemly carefull first, do ALL the mods in your head first and make sure they will ALL work the first time together, good luck

[Robinhood02]

darn thing wont let me edit my posts LOL,, the #50 chain didnt last 15 miles and something was broken,whether it was chain winde up or what i dont know, just not heavy enough i guess, when i changed up to #60 it all went away, Argo found that out the hard way too, back in the 70s, thats why they went to the double #50 and now theyve gone to the single #60, if youre gonna do it i would bite the bullet and go to #60 right off the git-go .the Max IV is REAL easy to change up too, because they use idler sprokets not those blasted rachet sliders (that was a serious pain in the butt on the Max II 8x8)

[LarryW]

Wow Robinhood, You have done some cool stuff! Very interesting to read.

[Mike]

Robinhood, of COURSE we would be interested in pics.

...hydomike if you put the motor down in front of the trani you will have MAJOR problems aligning the trani clutch with the engine clutch...

I thought this was going to hold me up as well, but it is possible to fit the engine in front of the transmission. You just have to slightly remold the tub where the drive clutch is. I did this on my wife's Max IV and it worked out fine. I was worried where the clutch hit, that remolding the tub would push it out into the tires, but it hit just in front of the rear tire and didn't cause any problems. I wish I had a better picture of it. I can get one later but you can see the motor here:



Hydromike, Robinhood's post reminded me of a couple other problems I ran into during my build, so here's a little more information that may save you a little time, or at least give you more to think about. I know you may go with another motor, but if you use a briggs, the oil filter gets very close to hitting the stock shifter linkage on the T20. It caused me to move the motor forward a little more than I really planned on.

Also, regardless of which motor you use, by mounting it in front of the T20, you have to move it forward a good bit to clear the shift linkage in general. By doing so, you really extend past the length of most belts, and it gets harder to find one that is long enough. I ended up having to position my motor to fit one of the only belts I could find near the correct length. I ended up using a 52" long 1-3/16" wide belt. It is a Gates belt, part number 6007. I just bought a spare a couple of weeks ago and was able to order it through NAPA, but they only make a few of them a year, and they wait until they have a certain number of orders for them before they make any more.

Now, there were several belts that were a LOT longer than 52" but it was a weird length between about 46" and 58" where there aren't many belts available, so keep that in mind when planning for the positioning of your motor.

[Robinhood02]

ahhh yes ,remoulding the tub to get clutch clearence was not an option for me because most of my units run tracks