new amphib manufacturer, with your help...

[MIteyMT]

I have been living in Alaska for about 4 years now. The first month I was here, a neighbor told me about shooting his first moose cow with a bow, and how he did not know how he was going to get her out of where he shot her. A friend called a friend, and soon, an "Argo" was on scene, and winched her right out, and carried her whole to the road, dropping her on the trailer. I had never heard of an "Argo", but was interested in something with that capability.
Four years later, I am the proud owner of a 1981 argo. I have been very impressed with the community here at 6x6world during my purchase, and also with the local experts, including the argo dealer in Anchorage (largest in the world), and the Max dealer here in Fairbanks.
During my introduction to the amphibious ATV world, I was very put out by the high price of some of these machines. I come from a background of builders, and was disappointed in the price discrepancy between older machines and new ones. I am a helicopter pilot now, but our family business has been building livestock equipment out of Montana, mostly for Universities, since the 1970s. We have the capability to build a tough, competitive machine. I also think we have the ability to build it for less. Here in Alaska, the lowest price I can find for a new Argo is $19,500, and the lowest price on a MAX IV is about 13,500 for a used demo.
Currently, I am trying to convince the powers that be within the family that we should apply our skills to the amphibious atv market. At first glance, I think there is a good chance we can offer an amphibious ATV that is comparable to BETTER in capability, for a more attractive price. I am here to ask what the community would like to see in a new ATV. Argo is front engine, Max is rear, Muddox is mid. They are comparable in size, and there have been larger (swamp fox) and smaller (Attex) machines over the years. My question is, what would you like to see in an amphibious ATV?
My personal opinion is durability and a lower price. Anyhow, I would like you to weigh in here. Also, if you feel you have ideas that would greatly improve the sport, please email them to info@mosdal.com. I truly believe that if I can convince my family to build a new machine, that if might make a quality machine accessible to many people who are automatically forced out of the market right now because of the prohibitive cost. Please consider this thoughtfully, and reply to the email address above. More responses means more possibility of a result. Thank you, and let's see what happens next! And please, do not flame me. I am not advertising. I love my amphib, and I would love to see others achieve their dream of an affordable and well built machine. That is what motivates me. I feel strongly that this might be just what the amphib world needs right now. Let's do this together!

Aaron D. Mosdal
907 322 4024

[Bw6]

My Opinion

MItey, Before you involve your family in this new venture, consider the costs. It takes a lot of money to bank roll a production AATV, even if you go very slow. Many have failed before you, for various reasons.

Just consider the skid steer transmission, what are you going to use? If you say Hydrostatic, there are even today a few of these guys on the side lines.

What about the body? The tooling required is very expensive if using HDPE.
Fiberglass? First thing the critics will say is "I'll punch a hole in it"
Aluminum? Styling, forget the curves, expensive as well, all welded construction, and engineered to eliminate flexing.

Also look who have gone before you, and failed and who survived. Only Max and Argo. Max hasn't done any real design changes for years, and Argo's high prices reflect their innovation.

Consider the market. Argo sells about 3,000 machines/year WORLDWIDE!
They are vertically integrated (they manufacture almost everything in house) Have a division that makes transmissions!

As far as a low price entry level machine, I don't think it is going to get much better than what Max and Argo now offer. For $7,995 you can get an Argo Frontier. Sure it only has a 14 hp. engine, but consider the product/quality.

If I haven't discouraged you from doing this, then my advice is to only build a prototype, test it, get feedback and don't gear up, try for find a "custom built" niche.

[Amphiman1]

Better quality, lower cost aatv's

Hi p.m. me....

[MIteyMT]

I am entertaining a few schools of thought

Idea 1: Offer similar capability to what is on the market now, with fewer frills and a much lower cost. Imagine if Ford or Chevy were to build the same pickup that they built in 1965. The simple technology would be cheap to produce. New technology could be introduced only where it was a savings. The end result could be a 25 hp amphib, brand new, with a fairly simple body, a headlight and ignition switch, and a low price tag.

Idea 2: improve on existing amphib ideas. Just for sake of argument, an 8x8 with improved water speed and stability. Maybe a jump to diesel powerplants, or possibly a suspension system superior to tire inflation.

Idea 3: A niche marketed amphib. For instance, an amphib that is comparable in price, but is well insulated, possibly with an integral cab, and is immediately better suited to operation in the cold, and geared towards creature comforts. Perhaps a versatile tool that does grading, plowing, and also becomes the trailer and a garden implement ( I actually have an idea in my head what this might look like)

I am just brainstorming, but I am curious to here what you have in mind. The business model that has worked so well for us in the past has been to build an absolutely idiot proof, highly durable product. There have always been cheaper ag products than what we offer, but we have managed to stay competitive in price, and be far superior in quality and durability. You can always tell our products from the competition because they tend to weigh twice as much. If there is doubt about the durability of a component, we fail to the heavy duty side.
I am picturing a large 8x8, with lots of power, and enough room next to any component you would ever need to work on to fit your hands, head, and probably your cup of coffee. Don't you miss opening the hood on a pickup, and having three feet of empty space on each side of the engine. You could pull engines like that before lunch!

[LarryW]

I would aim for a small 6x6 with counter rotating abilities and the size to fit anywhere. Simple, bare bones, light weight.

[MIteyMT]

I was thinking about that a little, I find the pickup loading of a hoot appealing. However, I find the massive cargo carrying ability of argos impressive.

[trebmaster]

Larry is right if I need carring capasity ill get a muddox,argo I want a one person hoot like AATV with counter rotate (sticks not tbar) cheap tracks,suspention seat, fit between wheels in a truck. also tires will be a problem for you,where are you going to get swimmers for your model

[mark m.]

The law of physics says you can't get something for nothing. Saying this in another way would be, do you want a light nimble machine very maneuverable and perhaps single seater? Or a fairly large machine built like a tank able to carry large payloads as well as people?

You will have to decide what niche in the market you want to target. All the machines in production today have their place thus they attract the customers that will best suit their needs and purpose.

I am a builder of many things and I always try to build for durability. However building for durability usually means extra weight. It is a never ending struggle as you juggle between strenght and light weight unless you can build from those ever elusive materials called no-obtainium

Either way choose a design with the largest ground clearance you can as this is always an issue.

Good luck and keep us posted to your endeaver.....Mark

[Amphiman1]

new aatv

Tracks would be nice,,,, easily removable ones

[mudbug3]

( QUOTE ) " The business model that has worked so well for us in the past has been to build an absolutely idiot proof, highly durable product. There have always been cheaper ag products than what we offer, but we have managed to stay competitive in price, and be far superior in quality and durability. You can always tell our products from the competition because they tend to weigh twice as much. If there is doubt about the durability of a component, we fail to the heavy duty side. "




MIteyMT ,



An amphib needs to be both durable and VERY reliable in the places that people choose to take them , but , there is also a price for added durability, and thats " WEIGHT ".

Durability should always be balanced with off road capability. In the quest for durability ,weight slowly becomes an issue. The heavier an amphib becomes through the design process , the higher total psi it will then exert on the ground. Weight is the big enemy of any amphibious machine. If an amphib is designed for durability , and becomes heavier through the design process , the end result will be less capability in mud and extreme soft conditions.

[AndyL]

most amphib manufacturers today are making only 8x8's except argo and hydrotraxx if they are still making them...never hear about them. there argo 6x6 is still too industrial in my opinion...there needs to be something more competitive to the max ii. the max ii is the cheapest all around 6x6 you will find anywhere...i've been looking into slowly remaking an older brand and the costs are very high, but as some of the others said, look at the new and old companies that flipped and find a different strategy. i like your ideas, although they are the same ideas that every new builder talks about. might be worth trying something different like the hoot or max ii type machine. and the parts add up quickly for them, in reality i don't think a max ii is overpriced, especially since they make fewer machines so the cost per machine is higher for them too.

[brushcutter]

Why not have a low priced "high seller" for those that want single seating and light weight, and a higher priced workhorse for those that want a machine of that type. Build the cheaper model narrow enough to allow it to be ridden on National Forrest land. Put 1.5" axles on the bigger "industrial" model with attachment points for plows, dozer blades and such. Ground clearance and/or the ability to go to larger tires will also need to be taken into account.

Obviously, you will have to be very competitive with the Quad market, and your machine must be very attractive, in both style and price, to lure potential buyers away from them. To do this you will have to produce a machine that can sell for $5000 to $10,000 which will be a hard bill to fill. Although not in my case, lots of your customers will want a machine that is much faster than 17 to 20 mph, keep this in mind also. Whatever you decide I hope it works out for you...Good luck.

[MIteyMT]

Other considerations

Some factors in favor of building AATVs in our company is that they would not immediately be the soul source income. MOSDAL has a steady customer base, and will likely always have business, as long as there are hogs, cattle, and sheep. (We even did a camel trailer, and a penguin scale some years ago.) Anyone who has ever had a business that needs to continue to produce a product while at the same time managing an emerging business knows how difficult that can be.
Also, there is a possibility of having bodies produced in Alaska, rather than Montana. It's worth looking into. I think there would be small business benefits.
But anyhow, none of that is interesting. Let's talk about what is. Going with existing technology for a transmission is almost a must. Hydraulic motors on wheels can be an awesome propulsion system, but comes with it's problems
The only two propulsion systems that my brother and I are even talking about are a hydraulic pump with motors, or a T20.
Going with a smaller machine would almost make me want to take another look at belts.
The rotorway exec relies on a belt drive system, and it's a helicopter. I think Robinsons do too.
I have read the forums quite a bit, but I am throwing it out there again. Right now, today, if you had that smaller 6x6, can I really do anything but a skidsteer transmission? Seems hard to beat.

[RKlingborg]

It would be nice to have a lower cost AATV, the only real way is to make them more popular so they could be mass prodused at a lower cost. One area thats not realy looked at is aftermarket acc. so the AATV would be more popuar as work machines, As for farm vehicals there is the Argo Centuar witch is diesel powered. as long as the razer and rino have all the addvertising they will be the most popular. just my 1 1/2 cents.

[MIteyMT]

Really been brainstorming this weekend, and can't tell you how much I have appreciated the input. I got a real charge out of the Bushwacker, great quality workmanship! You would fit right in in my camp. The more I look at it the more I am convinced that at least a prototype is in order. The trend to compete with the fourwheeler with a small machine needs to be answered. By the same token, my brother and I both have large families, and with the growing popularity of the side by sides, I think a machine that hauls people and gear has a place too. It would be wonderful to come up with a design that undercuts the rhinos, tyrex, ranger, and razers, and has amphibious cabability to boot. I asked for input, I am getting plenty. I would like to hear from others, if they are out there, who would be 8x8 customers if the price did not drive them away. Also, it's only a matter of opinion, but I would appreciate of the admin would bump me back to the general forum, because I truly believe that is where this thread belongs.