The **OTHER** Super Swamp Fox build....

[hydromike]

What size steel is that?

I went with 3/16" mild steel for the perimeter; outer and inner frame rails. I'll likely go with 1/8" or so to complete the "C" channel on the inner and outer frame rails. I searched and searched for a local fabricator willing to bend-up channel for the frame rails I wanted, but came across a lot of whining and complaining from several independent and commercial contractors. Effit. I'll build my own.

Nice work. Did you use a plasma cutter to cut the steel?

Thanks! I had the local steel supplier cut it to length (roughly) , then just used hole saws for the axle holes and cross tubes. Everything else was done with a 4 1/2" grinder, a hack-saw and a few pints of home-brewed IPA. Forgive me if a couple of the (hic!) angles are off.....

[Tomo]

hi ,
Some advice for building a ssf chassis .
As u will notice in the pics of mine the chassis was replaced .The chas that was in the machine was badly twisted and was most definitely not the original .

The ssf uses a flex chas , current makers do not use this design they use a rigid style
eg argo ,max etc
Original chas is outer rails 5 inch x 3/4 1/8 thick
inner rails 4 1/2 or 4 3/4 x 1 1/4 1/8 thick
2 x tube cross members 1 5/8 3/16 thick location 9 iches in front of midlle axle and 9 inches to the rear

the issue u will have is space for the chain and tensioner in the lower tub
WIDTH IS CRITICAL i have used max 2 tensioners f and rear

Redesign chassis
rigid design requires reinforcing
inner rails 5 inch x 1 1/4 x 1/8 high tensile /strength steel
outer rails 5 inch x 3/4 x 1/8 high strength steel
use 4 x tube cross members 1 5/8 5/32 or 3/16 thick location 4 3/4 inches either side of mid axle and the same distance from the front and rear axle

If u use the 1 5/8 tube and it is spaced further away from the axle when then chain tensioner operates the chain will rub . [this is using 24 tooth sprockets no 50 ,26 tooth would improve this ] [my chassis cannot use 26 tooth etc ]

original rear and front angle steel ""cross member "" change these to c channel 5 inch x 1 inch [ cut windows in these for sprockets to protrude thru ]

To use the above i have used original axle distances 26 3/4 front and 27 inches rear

The bearing housings are cast 4 bolt outer 72mm x 1 1/4 Use smaller inner housings for 62 x 1 inch bearing . Why? so u can retain the axle with a bolt .[requires a step in the axle .

If u use a full box chass total length will be critical ,mine only just fits by 3/16 inch

tomo

[hydromike]

I've duplicated the overall dimensions of the original frame (length, width, axle spacing), so fitment won't be an issue as far as physically getting the steel to fit inside the fiberglass body. My 1 3/4" cross-tubes (original on my machine) have been placed in their original location, so chain-rub on the cross tubes shouldn't be a problem. I have plans on using threaded-style chain adjusters all around the machine. On such a heavy machine, I'd like shy away from the Max II style adjusters. On a moderately-beefed Max II, I've seen a couple new adjusters blow out completely (more than once) when reversing. (Hi Tom!) It's happened on a couple 16hp machines, too. The 'Fox can only get heavier....

I've retained the 62mm 3-bolt flanged style inner and outer bearings. My inner and outer frame rails are all 5" x 3/16" plate, and I'm welding 1" flat stock to the top and bottom of each rail to form a "C". I did this same thing on my Max VIII project (sigh...), and it turned out well. I'm going to make new axles, new sprocket tubes, etc. for this machine, so apart from simply fitting the the frame into the body, the rest is irrelevent. I like the idea of retaining the axle with a bolt a-la' Max II and IV. I'll add threading my axles to the list of things to do....

Additional reinforcements to the frame will have to come as I start laying out the rest of the internals. I just know that I'll want to move stuff around about a hundred times if I weld it in now....

[Tomo]

HI,
The manufacture of a 3 piece c channel personally i would not recommend it . WHY A folded piece will allways be stronger . This is not to say it cannot be done BUT..The distortion and or stress will be applied to chassis unevenly . The stress will concentrate on the welds ,which is never a good thing . Refer to a qualified welder for ways to get around this .

The chasis that i removed was a 3 piece and was real badly twisted

As to why u chose to go with a three piece design because many sheet metal shops were not interested i can completely understand . After u find one they will then assume 1/8 tolerance on folds is fine NOT............The tolerance must be 1/16 inch period ..
Only pilot holes can be drilled in the flat steel prior to folding 1/8 smaller . Holes that are close to the fold will distort the fold etc .Holes stretch and can go oval shape .

The max 2 type adjusters have only 2 faults really
The bi metal spring does loose tension [cheap to replace ]
As the above spring holds the ratchet engagement ,this is the other fault .For bullet proof operation a clamping bolt or lock bolt would be ideal .

U made mention that your cross tubes were 1 3/4 mine are 1 5/8.

The timber in the floor i removed . Do u intend on reusing the timber idea ??

If u r going with new axles sprockets etc have u considered taper lock style which only require key ways to be cut in axles and the bonus is quick and easy install with almost the strength of spline type

cheers
tomo

[hydromike]

...The manufacture of a 3 piece c channel personally i would not recommend it . WHY A folded piece will allways be stronger .

... and 1 1/2" axles will always be stronger than 1 3/16". The line needs to be drawn somewhere, and I've had great luck using both welded C-channel and plain-Jane 3/16" plate as frame rails on my Attex Chief. I understand that bending a piece of channel would be stronger, but at some point the next step up is futile. Why not go with double 60 chain all around? It just doesn't need it.

...The max 2 type adjusters have only 2 faults really...
The bi metal spring does loose tension [cheap to replace ]

It's cheap to replace, but every time you snap past the ratchet detents, the entire "ratchet" setup has lost a little bit of its holding power. To each his own; I just don't like 'em. I know that they're MUCH easier to adjust, but they definitely need a locking bolt, as you say. At that point though, you're practically at a Unistrut setup, like on Hustlers (which I like a great deal....)

...Do u intend on reusing the timber idea ??

I've not committed to the idea, yet. I don't like the idea of a big piece of lumber in the bottom of the machine, regardless of thickness. It just seems so ephemeral. I don't know in what other direction I'd go. A piece of thick HDPE would be nice, but it would have to be riveted in place, and I don't like the idea of a bunch of rivets on the bottom of the machine when you can't countersink them well enough. I'll have to do something, though; the long span of the fiberglass on the bottom makes it a bit flimsy. Did you just cut the wood out and stick with the fiberglass? I'm open to other ideas....

...If u r going with new axles sprockets etc have u considered taper lock style?

The idea didn't cross my mind yet, but I'm definitely going to look at it as an option. I would have loved to go with splined axles, but it's cost prohibitive right now. Max II and Max IV splined axles are way too short for the 'Fox, unfortunately.

[Tomo]

hi ,
You mentioned the hustler type of adjuster, can u please direct me to a picture of one as we both are aware of the max 2 adjuster faults .IMO the max ajuster is an average performer ,so yes i would consider others . [it was just easier for me to start with a pre made unit ]

The replacement for the timber would be say 1/2 inch HDPE or if it is not rigid enough a plastic sheet of some type . I have seen the recycled plastic logs they use under rail line tough flexiable weather proof, sheets available ??
Another idea is to use foam that is used in fibre glass boats . I am aware of it being f/glassed in [down side would be limited strength ]
If u use timber or equivilant on the floor remember its original purpose would have been
stiffness for added strength
required to be water proof unlike timber
The ""timber""' insert has to function like a false floor as it is fibre glassed to the main floor allowing eg rocks to penetrate the outer floor but still no leaks to the inside

tomo

[Noel Woods]

Just because all you guys have started rebuilding your machines, I decided to join you. Not just for kicks and grins, I had a bearing carrier go out and in the process of looking at the original zerk-less bearings, decided to redo the thing right. Everything is disassembled. Will go with splined axels, heavy duty sprockets and bearings, reinforced frame, new UHMW for the chain adjusters, as well as some body work. The diesel motor and t-20 will go back in with no changes. E.T.A. for finalization, November 2011. I hope to see several other Swamp Foxes up and going then.

[hydromike]

hi , You mentioned the hustler type of adjuster, can u please direct me to a picture of one

Hey tomo, here's a picture of a Hustler front chain adjuster. The adjusters for the rear and the middle (off the T-20) chains are similar.



This is a bit of a bad example since this one is bent pretty badly, but that's a result of a poor mounting system for the adjuster; not an issue with the adjuster itself. After bracing mine up a bit more, I have about 20 or 30 hours on the adjusters, most of which were pretty rough hours following Racerone3 at Busco. It's arguably an imperfect system, but I've had no problems with the unistrut staying tight. You can easily double up on the torque-down bolts and even make up your own rollers, or use a sprocket instead. I'm running an original roller, one of Race's he lent me, and two idler sprockets on the primary chains off the transmission.

My first thought on the Swamp Fox is to use something similar to the unistrut for the four secondary chains, and idler sprockets (non-unistrut) on the primaries. Thinking about it a bit more, I don't see why I couldn't use unistrut on the primaries (a-la' Hustler).... There's just another method I'd like to challenge myself to build and evaluate, and this is the perfect chance to try it out.

I still don't know about the floorboard; Lots of options, and I'd like to be able to have a poly skid plate under the machine. If I could countersink the rivets into an HDPE plate on the underside and have it pass all the way through a 3/8" (or so) floor board. That's a bit ambitious, and those long rivets get expensive fast.

Noel! You're wripping it apart! Good for you.... I'm envious of the splined axles. I wish I had the funds to get a set for mine, but as per usual, I stretch myself thin on too many hobbies. Post pictures as you go along; whatching folks build stuff is exciting....

[Stonewall]

Just adding to the Hustler chain adjuster topic there, if you use sprockets on those, make sure the channels are alot closer to where the chain. I tried to put sprockets on the stock adjusters in my Hustler, and every time I went in reverse, they got in a bind and threw the chain. Since mine is currently apart, I built some adjusters better suited to sprockets:
(sorry for the crappy image quality)

[hydromike]

(sorry for the crappy image quality)

Your crappy image isn't crappy at all! When I first saw this, I thought it was a great idea. I still do! You're having binding issues? It's odd, because my 980 does the same thing in reverse. It's not bad enough to throw a chain, but it's a light click-click-click, which I usually attribute to shark-finned sprockets on the idlers, sprocket tubes or T-20 itself.

You kind of trailed off (or I didn't understand) where you said:

...... make sure the channels are alot closer to where the chain. I tried ...

????

There was something important there.... I missed it....

[Stonewall]

Your crappy image isn't crappy at all! When I first saw this, I thought it was a great idea. I still do! You're having binding issues? It's odd, because my 980 does the same thing in reverse. It's not bad enough to throw a chain, but it's a light click-click-click, which I usually attribute to shark-finned sprockets on the idlers, sprocket tubes or T-20 itself.

Mine threw chains with my first attepmt at sprocket tensioners, which is why I abandoned that idea for a while. When I put some new nylon rollers on it, I still got the clicking like you(even with new chains and sprockets), but it didn't throw the chains anymore.

You kind of trailed off (or I didn't understand) where you said: ????

There was something important there.... I missed it....

Sorry for trailing off like that there, I was refering to the problem with my first failed attempt at sprocket adjusters. The channel (especially on the right side) is too far away from the chain that the sprocket had to be way out on the bolt, and as a result, the force of the chain against it in reverse would push it up and angle the sprocket until it ran the chain off. Here are some pictures of them, I wish I had a few of the right side, since it was where the biggest problem was, but all I have is pics of the left.

...I was just thinking, you should put AMS Swamp Fox tires on your Super Swamp Fox....

[hydromike]

...I was just thinking, you should put AMS Swamp Fox tires on your Super Swamp Fox....

I would, but that would force the universe to implode, and none of us would have the pleasure of existing any longer. I think you were definitely on the right track with your sprocket idea. It was just a matter of support. I was actually thinking of using the UHMW rollers on the primary chains off the T20, but just haven't gotten there yet. This should just about eliminate any clicking, clunking, or chatterling (fabricated word) of the machine in reverse...

I honestly don't know which direction I'll go with the 'Fox. I really like UHMW sliders and rollers. I modified one one Max II HDPE-style adjuster to work with Uni-strut (I never took a picture) on the right-rear chain of the 980, and I love it. It'll never bend (it's 1/4" angle) and it seems to be perfect for the application. I'll head down to RI at some point and see if they'll sell me some more parts to make more of my own...

[Stonewall]

I chose the sprocket adjusters over the plastic ones because they help keep the chain in line better, last longer, create less resistance, and are much easier to come by. (and they're reasonably priced at $6-8 each.) I still havn't come up with a good way to put sprocket adjusters on the rear of my Hustler(I havn't found a good way to put rollers on there either....), but I have some ideas...

If I had the money and the resources, I would ditch the chains completely and use 2 shafts running lengthwise connected to a gearbox on each axle. I even drew up a transmission design to use that incorporated HI and LO gears and an automotive style torque converter (NO BELT!!!), but like I said, I don't have the money or the resources required to build something like that. (hopefully after college....)

[lewis]

What kind of axles are you running in the Fox Mike? 1 inch..1.25 tube or splined? Great looking machine and can't wait to see it!

[Tomo]

hi ,
If u look at different swamp foxes there are 3 different ways of adjusting the primary [t20] chains
1/ t20 slides with puller bolts which can be locked in position
2/ idler sprockets mounted between 2x slotted plates coming up from the tube cross member .
3/tilting transmission ,similar to the Argo idea

90% have the slide type
Don has posted a picture of his which is the tilt and slotted plate design

tomo
must go back into the shed "Hic"might just open another