New Adair 18.5 inch belted snow and ice tracks

[plott hound]

man i love this thread.great videos and great ideas.keep it going boys.

[foxvalley]

Whooooaaaa, where have I been, whooaa, those are totally impressive videos!!!! I almost can't believe my eyes! Wow, Foxvalley two more very impressive videos!!!! Thanks for taking time to post them up!

Thanks for the kind words,Dan,I am having a ball with my new toy.I am very impressed how this setup is preforming for me so far,and don't worry about me tearing up this thing,it's like a rock........so far.....LOL.

[Buzz]

thank you. I appreciate the input and taking the time to reply.

[mightymaxIV]

I have about 7 hours of testing on Tims new belted track,with the belted long cleat kit attached,and also with the short cleat kit also attached in between the long cleats.
So far,this is the most aggressive track system that I have tested,and should do anything that any other track can do,and more.I have just made about 15 video clips,of this track system in action, and the most impresseve is the video of the argo walking out onto the ice in about 4' of water.I'm not sure if I was hitting bottom or not,but am comming close to walking out every time without touching bottom. I think with a second person with me,we can get it to walk out on the ice in deep water every time. This is something that has never been done with any other track system that I am aware of, in deep water.
Talk is cheap,so let the video do the talking for me.I have yet to download to utube,but should have some clips today.
edited argo walking out on the ice - YouTube
walking out on ice in shallow water - YouTube

Whooooaaaa, where have I been, whooaa, those are totally impressive videos!!!! I almost can't believe my eyes! Wow, Foxvalley two more very impressive videos!!!! Thanks for taking time to post them up!

[Rock Doctor]

FWIW, I have not been able to get any ice/snow to stick to my Adair Tracks up here, even when running through "Overflow" on the ice. There is really not much that will stick to UHMW. I am also having pretty good luck with the new U shaped Ice Cleats.
I could use a little extra width to help with floatation in my snow conditions, but I believe the extra width of the "Snow" kit would address this.

Cool vids guys, keep em coming. I wish I could get out a little more, maybe do some testing like you guys, but time is at a premium with me this winter.

Here is an older clip of me playing in some "Overflow"

RD

[mightymaxIV]

Hey Foxvalley, that video of your HDI climbing logs is one impressive video, thanks for taking the time to post it up. You continue to impress me with outstanding videos showing me capabilities of an Argo HDI that are simply unbelievable! Please don't tear your machine up, I want it to live so you can continue to blow me away with things that I thought an Argo couldn't do.

[Obsessed]

[QUOTE=Buzz;143096]I've climbed up ice shelves and crazy steep hills with the tracks I have, so I know they work..yes there's video. My advice is that u-channel ice-cleats will always pack with snow/ice. Then they're worthless. [\QUOTE]

Buzz...I always appreciate your opinion and I fell like we have very similar ideas on product design, function, and benefit. As far as "not being able to please everyone" I have general felt that you do like our unique products...I know that we have had friendly debate as to what works and why...gear reduction tracks and the need for track tuners, and the benefit of UHMW over steel in amphibious track design or two debates that come to mind...you make good intelligent arguments supporting your opinion and I try to do the same...ultimately we have always ended up agreeing with one another and other than this recent conversation (which I'm not sure what we are debating...I guess whether or not there is a better track design for climbing up out of open water and on to hard ice) I think we always will end up agreeing. I sincerely enjoy all the videos you have posted and am very impresses with your awesome setup. My only concern (and I don't think it came from you) is that somewhere I read that the worlds greatest track could swim right out over open water and climb up on ice...I've never seen it and I don't think you have ever tried to make that claim. I am very certain that I haven't about the Adair tracks and was even PM'd today by a forum member asking that very question...my response is always the same "I've never seen a track that could actually do it" although Doug's last video was pretty convincing...lol....who knows...you might be right on this topic.

It does sound heartfelt, but why would you set anyone up (knowing what you know now) with rubber tracks and no tuners? If I had a pair of 13" tracks, I personally would just give them to someone. I wouldn't let them spend "any" money to purchase a garbage set of tracks like that. Yes, you sound helpful. Just being honest. If they couldn't afford to spend just a bit more, I would say tell them to just hold off and save a little longer, work more...that's what I do.

I build products that I hope meet certain needs better than any other solution I know of. That's not to say that there are not excellent factory options available for some situations. Often I run into customers that call me because they are interested in such a popular track option...I try to understand their needs and expectations before I give my opinion (selfishly I guess) because the last thing I want is to mislead a buyer much less actually have them put their faith in me and be disappointed...I think you will agree that from your personal experience, customer satisfaction is more important to me than sales or profit...there are several people on this forum that I have encouraged to buy from someone else usually because of a unique need or a unique opportunity to buy something elsewhere really cheap...NCT would be another example of a friend that I told without hesitation to go buy a used set of argo rubber tracks as apposed to a set of new Adairs and I think he has been really happy with them...our friend last week that got a new HDI with rubber tracks was replacing an older Avenger with the same track option for occasional winter use...he puts very few hours on his machine in the winter, was familiar with the rubber tracks and had good luck with them "if it ant broke don't fix it you know" he uses those tracks so seldom that I didn't think it justified the cost and in the summertime it is very simple for him to just drop the tracks and go, no need to remove the tuners...the other customer is doing a lot of weed control spraying in a very rutted, rocky, and thorny area...he felt that a solid track option would help protect his tires from damage and he is right...rubber would have made for a better sale, but you know as well as I do that the wider tracks don't like a lot of twisting and I was certain it would be hard on them and high maintenance for him...he hasn't made a decision yet and I'm honestly not certain what would be a better option if he wants a full block track...I offered an Adair design with much smaller spacing, but I don't know...you can't be everything to everybody...if you have some good ideas let me know :-)

Anyway...thanks for everything and keep sharing your comments and videos...many of us sincerely love new things to ponder and I think it helps us all move this sport forward

Respectfully,

tim

[Buzz]

I thought it did pretty well. When you were able to get on top of all the floating ice, it was no big deal. You kept a little momentum and kept your track a bit higher in the water that way. Good example of how "pointing" for the floating ice (when starting from the shore) was a good idea. Had a little bit of a problem when there was nothing under you and you were trying to go forward. But, you are exactly right, momentum (if you're in a situation where you can get it) will give you a better chance of at least "popping" the front end up. If you can do that, you can usually make it. This is very difficult to do if you can't get momentum or use any kind of ice "ramping" while you are dead floating, especially if the ice is taller. This seems to hold true on steep, tall banks in the summer/fall too.

[foxvalley]

Here is just one more video,simular to one I posted earlier,but I think this one is needed as to show that in shallow water, when the back of the tracks can touch bottom,these tracks/cleats will walk up on the ice everytime. You will notice that the argo is actually floating as it swims up to the ice,then the cleats hook in and bring the back down hitting bottom,thus creating the needed traction to propell the unit forward,and up onto the ice.

Oops,after watch the video again,it doesn't seem that the back of the tracks are touching at all.There might be ice under the tracks gaining traction that way.I could use some input as to what you guys think.shallow water ice walk out 3 - YouTube

[Buzz]

Foxvalley- thank you for posting the video. I know how time consuming it is, and it helps everyone. In regards to snow, those snow conditions are not the same as those that really "require" a wide track lots of floatation. A much narrower track would have worked just as well but would not have worked so well in truly deep, soft snow. In deep/soft snow, your track would have sunk much more. With your empty machine weight, it would have worked fine though just the same.
......I'm sure someone has a video of supertracks globbed up.....and the rubber track "hinge" globbed up with a snowball hitting the tub every time it comes around. I've climbed up ice shelves and crazy steep hills with the tracks I have, so I know they work..yes there's video. My advice is that u-channel ice-cleats will always pack with snow/ice. Then they're worthless. In the summer/fall and swamp this isn't an issue.
Tim, you are right, UHMW itself doesn't really suffer from snow and ice "bonding." But depending on crosser spacing, thickness, and shape...certain snow conditions will most definitely not clean-out as well. It's the traction add-ons that are the issue. When you need them, you need them. If they're packed full, they no longer bite. I understand where you say you're coming from 100%. We are all different and have different needs...you want to help people. I get the feeling that it is true, but that it also "is" all about promoting and selling things you might build. Why else would I be able to read the marketing ads that I have. With selling products comes criticism from some...like me I guess. You can't please everyone all the time. It's nothing personal. Like you said, if your product is the best, it will speak for itself. No need to put down others. Offering up questions or concerns, sure, but breaking another down....I won't put down your track, I'll just raise questions or concerns regarding "certain" statements I've heard describing their ability "over and above" anything else out there. We don't want to let anyone down. I am a hobbyist, and I have learned a lot from reading about other's "projects." Their documentation (written and video) has helped me. The age of the internet. Sharing my findings is only going to "help" someone else down the road. If that means making rebuttals to carefully crafted statements and untrue criticism then I will. It is frustrating to read certain things because I know not everyone can see through the smoke and mirrors. Effective marketing, even if exxagerated works, so I get it. I have been lead astray by false expectations of what a track could and could not do. And now, finally, having run them all, I can honestly give someone helpful feedback, prior to them spending a bunch of money. I hope to "help" someone make the best use of their money, the 1st time around. I've come to the point I prefer to test and figure this out myself....I don't believe half of what I hear anymore. I'll always share my findings without a "spin" or creative "comparison one-upping" verbage. It does sound heartfelt, but why would you set anyone up (knowing what you know now) with rubber tracks and no tuners? If I had a pair of 13" tracks, I personally would just give them to someone. I wouldn't let them spend "any" money to purchase a garbage set of tracks like that. Yes, you sound helpful. Just being honest. If they couldn't afford to spend just a bit more, I would say tell them to just hold off and save a little longer, work more...that's what I do. For me this is just a hobby, but it can be an expensive one. If you can get it right the first time, it helps. I wasn't so lucky. I've thought many times about going full circle back to a couple old beater machines on good tracks.
I'll try to round up some folks in Alaska that have your tracks and try to get some good video. Good or bad, there's a good chance it might help you even more. Some of the posts (by customers) don't quite represent all of the factors accurately.

[Obsessed]

The first time I climb the logs it is in high gear,the second time I shift into low,both gears worked awesome,a true testiment to the admiral high torque tranny,and the track system. adair belted tracks with cleats walking on log pile - YouTube

Cool video Doug...hard on the high dollar logs, but very cool video!...for what it worth t have never seen a factory style track or tire that would come close to climbing that tall of log, much less in the rain...pretty sure that most tracks with a little bit of steel on them would give it a pretty good go though :-)

Buzz I agree with a lot of what you are saying and you make some good points, I'm not sure I have ever personably been able to get snow and ice to stick to one of our plastic track segments while going in and out of ice, mud, water and snow...I do agree that molded plastic tracks with open cavities seem to be really good at picking up another hundred pounds or so of snow, ice, and debris, but in general they are still a lot easier on a machine than heavier rubber or steel tracks, and they work really well for some types of challenges...

that said...all these track and machine options are good for some people and some applications and can be made to perform specific tests very well. I think that most people enjoy their custom built rides because hopefully they put it together for their type of challenges...occasionally we see people buy a high dollar machine with the false hope that it will excel at everything which is never the case, and if they didn't get honest and accurate information to base their personal decision on they often end up disappointed with their machine and unfortunately our unique sport :-(. I always find it interesting that a smart guy like Rock Doctor would take one good old conquest over two new HDI's (actually if he was smart he would take the HDI's and sell them and probably buy a nice second home..lol) ...and a guy like Mud Bug would prefer a smaller, and lighter 6x6 HD over a new MuddOx...Doug has found that a light weight HDI with tracks will take him anywhere and with comfort and confidence ...tattooman obviously enjoys a rambunctious and sporty go anywhere MaxII ...and max rules and I have been debating which is better max or argo for years and I don't think I've won yet :-)....different strokes for different folks....I guess that's what probably makes us unique and is probably a huge advantage for me personally, is that I have had the pleasure to drive and play with everything over the past decade and have access to every part and option currently made today...I will never say that there is just one option that is right for everyone...just last week Adair argo sales helped a friend buy a new HDI with factory rubber tracks (and no track tuners)...and yesterday I recommended Argos 13" standard track to a guy that would probably have the best luck with that setup for his application...we have the fortunate advantage to be able to test everything, build anything, and simply recommend what is going to work best for a guy and his budget ..not just promote or sell what we might build

tim

[foxvalley]

Thats funny, I thought we were talking tracks,not tires.

[Buzz]

Ok,here we go,this is one of my favorite videos,it really shows off the "aggressivness" of the belted cleat kit, along with the short cleat kit on the adair belted tracks.Being down in IA,helping put these tracks together,I had the opportunity to add both cleat kits,as my little experiment,and am pleasantly suprised at the results.
As you will see in the video,the cleats are full of wet snow,and it is raining,and the logs are wet,do you really think any of this matters with this setup?
Also, I thought these cleats would tear up the grass/weeds and get all caught up in the teeth,not so at all!!
This cleat kit(ice cleats)or winter kit, in my opinion,has much more use than in just winter,ie,how many times do you get stuck on a submerged log in the muddy trail because your tracks can't bite into it.
The first time I climb the logs it is in high gear,the second time I shift into low,both gears worked awesome,a true testiment to the admiral high torque tranny,and the track system. adair belted tracks with cleats walking on log pile - YouTube

fox-valley- I'm not trying to sling mud, but a lot pile like that can be driven up on just tires. Many guys already know this, but for the ones that don't.....FYI

[Buzz]

I know it seems like snow/ice will just fall back out. But I'll be 100% honest with you...the majority of the time it won't. Frequently, especially if you're going in and out of water and back up on the snow, it will freeze "hard" inside of any "pocket" or void space. Closed depressions (supertrack is a classic example) pack with snow. Especially with different temperatures, snow conditons, water crossings, etc. Snow on snow contact for track is almost always a very very bad thing. Your track becomes not-so-good anymore not to mention a lot heavier. I think this is a big risk for any kind of u-channel (or other cleat or main track "piece" or "segment"). They will pack with snow, and they absolutely can become non-functional....in other words useless. You can also damage your tub for the giant ice clumps coming back up and around the track. I've seen it happen. This isn't an issue with the escargo cleat for what that's worth. The snow/ice simply does not pack the depressions so that the cleat no longer works. The single on-edge cleat remains functional and has tremendous bite. Trust me, a guy could certainly fabricate himself some similar steel cleats, but for me it's just not worth the labor. I'm happy to pay for a steel cleat (even if only for 33 to 50%) of of a track, so that I know it's strong, each piece is identical, and they work. If it doesn't work well, there's no point in using it at all....it doesn't matter if its fairly strong, looks good, and and costs less. I am more guilty than anyone of paying more the 4th or 5th time around when it would have been easier to just spend a bit more in the first place. The newer 25" cleat is crazy aggressive/strong. Even the older 10" wide crosser for 22/24" tires has the benefits I'm talking about. Any machine with small tires and less clearance is at a disadvantage when up against a bigger machine that is set-up the same way with the same tracks. That being said, me and a couple buddies (conquest owners) will be putting together hybrid escargos (possibly up to 50% steel in various plastic/steel crosser patters) to see how to make it work even better. We'll figure out the best compromise of weight and traction. Escargo all-steel tracks are now lighter as well. A hybrid though....even a ful 50%....still weighs "half" while in the water. If you make your track "too" light (as in all-plastic) I have noticed that you need to run a shorter (less aggressive grouser) and are more limited in adjusting tire diameter/track pressure/tension because the grousers above the tire become very "hoppy" and want to bounce up, slapping the tub. It's more evident with a very aggressive cleat like the one on my hybrid track because the ride on hard pack is slightly more "bumpy" and there is a bit less clearance between the grouser/tub area. Put some steel on it and the "hoppy" or "bowstring" effect of the crossers on top of the tires goes away. Adding "some" steel cleats removes this "all-UHMW" bowstring effect....at least in my case. Now I could have just made a shorter, less aggressive grouser, but what I'm after is performance. Firm tires and agressive cleats work. Add some steel cleats and the track isn't as prone to "bouncing" all over the place. A 33% steel hybrid probably only adds 25 lbs of actual "payload" working against machine floatation while in the water. The majority of the track is made of components "less" dense than water. But man, you gotta have a realiable cleat that provides traction and does not "pack" with snow/ice.

[foxvalley]

Ok,here we go,this is one of my favorite videos,it really shows off the "aggressivness" of the belted cleat kit, along with the short cleat kit on the adair belted tracks.Being down in IA,helping put these tracks together,I had the opportunity to add both cleat kits,as my little experiment,and am pleasantly suprised at the results.
As you will see in the video,the cleats are full of wet snow,and it is raining,and the logs are wet,do you really think any of this matters with this setup?
Also, I thought these cleats would tear up the grass/weeds and get all caught up in the teeth,not so at all!!
This cleat kit(ice cleats)or winter kit, in my opinion,has much more use than in just winter,ie,how many times do you get stuck on a submerged log in the muddy trail because your tracks can't bite into it.
The first time I climb the logs it is in high gear,the second time I shift into low,both gears worked awesome,a true testiment to the admiral high torque tranny,and the track system. adair belted tracks with cleats walking on log pile - YouTube